[delecti]

The options available to that intelligence chief in your scenario are probably bad for China, but are they any worse for those citizens than what China's own government could do to those citizens?

I kinda get why the US is banning tiktok, I don't get why you'd expect most of tiktok's users to care about those reasons.

[homebrewer]

You only need to look at the news for how many Russian citizens are tricked by Ukrainian telephone con-men into giving away all their money and then setting fire to banks/trains/various military installations in the hope of getting it back. I'm already expecting to see that in the US and elsewhere when the inevitable happens. Now imagine the enemy government has dirt on most of your citizens, how easier would all of this be?

[mynameisvlad]

You can't make extraordinary claims like that without providing a source. Especially considering Wikipedia has this to say:

> In August 2023, the Russian Prosecutor General's Office and the Ministry of Internal Affairs issued official warnings about a new form of phone fraud in which Russians are forced to set fire to military enlistment offices through pressure or deception. The authorities claim that scammers call from the territory of Ukraine and choose elderly Russians as their victims. The Russian government has not yet offered any evidence of their claims. Russian business newspaper Kommersant claims that fraudsters support the Armed Forces of Ukraine and organize "terrorist attacks".

Emphasis mine.

> Now imagine the enemy government has dirt on most of your citizens

You don't really have to imagine this.

[throw-the-towel]

Kommersant is a way better source than the Russian government anyway.

[delecti]

Your comment just reiterates the same point which I was already questioning. My response to JumpCrisscross already applies perfectly to your comment.

[LPisGood]

From China’s perspective, the things the US intelligence official could to China’s citizens is worse than what China could do to those same citizens.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable for some citizens to feel the same

[delecti]

As a US citizen living in the US, I think it's entirely unreasonable to fear the Chinese government more than the US government. It seems utterly ridiculous to me to even consider, and seems just as ridiculous that a Chinese citizen could feel the same.

Even leaving aside the state's monopoly on violence, agents at any of multiple three-letter agencies could easily ruin my life. An IRS agent could randomly decide to audit my last decade of tax returns. A law enforcement agent (local, state, or federal) could deliberately incorrectly mark my vehicle as stolen. They could SWAT me on a trumped up basis. They could just black bag me, and throw me in some dark pit.

China could probably hack me, and fuck up my digital presence, including my finances. But the US government could easily skip a few steps and just declare those finances illegitimate in a variety of ways much more difficult to undo.

[JumpCrisscross]

> it's entirely unreasonable to fear the Chinese government more than the US government

Sure, individually. If you think about more than yourself, you should recognise a collective threat that requires a modicum of sacrifice to protect against.

[8note]

id consider that the sacrifice is the opposite - the local government is a collective threat, and we sacrifice locally built products to mitigate that threat

[LPisGood]

The local government is made up of the collective. I have a lot more control on what they do than what China does.

[JumpCrisscross]

> are they any worse for those citizens than what China's own government could do to those citizens?

Yes. It's riskier for the FBI to fuck around with an American than it is for the CIA to fuck around with someone in Russia or China. Particularly when we're dealing with extorting someone using embarassing, but not necessarily criminal, information.

Or just, you know, sowing chaos. Again, if the CIA had a list of Chinese citizens who may be mentally unstable and are obsessing over e.g. the Uyghurs, could that not be put to use in a way that's harmful to China and that person?

Your risk of being fucked with by either Beijing or D.C. is incredibly low. ("Fucked with" meaning being harassed for legal behaviour.) Given the existence of such a database, however, the chances of fuckery at the population level is almost 100%. What President wouldn't want a call they could make that would tumble a foreign adversary into chaos for a few days?