[culebron21]

1. What about a thumb cluster with 4 keys in a row? IDK if it's workable, maybe not. My experience with Ergodox says pressing top row on thumb cluster is too clumsy. (Maybe it's easier with dactyl-like keyboards?)

2. On Ergodox EZ, and non-English layout, I need more keys. Unfortunately, the right side corner of ISO keyboard has to be distributed among other places on Ergodox EZ. (I'd love to have home/pgup/pgdn/end column somewhere, like on laptops. Maybe the rightmost end of kbd is not the best place for it, IDK.)

3. Adding extra row/column causes lower row collide with the thumb cluster. I guess, it's reasonable, but I don't know what's the workaround. (remove the lower row completely?) https://imgur.com/a/vdfOLq1

Good idea about finger scanning.

I tried the scan the hand and simulate features. Will the editor make different halves of the keyboard?

Also, thumb bends differently than in the simulator. :)

[culebron21]

to be clear about non-English layout in ErgoDox EZ. In ISO keyboard, there are 3 keys (two square brackets and foot/inch key), that don't fit in EZ's main keys block. I got 2 options for them:

1. Put them on the rightmost column, but it's unclear where the `]` has to go -- lower, or upper.

2. Use the rightmost wide column of keys for some special keys (like home/pgup/pgdn/end), but have to redistribute these 3 keys elsewhere.

[tpmoney]

Not sure the specific problems with a non-english layout, but if it helps with some ideas this is the layout I use for my keyboard (so far)[1].

[ and ] go on the inner columns on either side and '/" goes where it normally would be on an ansi qwerty layout.

The page up/down and home/end keys live on a temporary (hold) layer under the arrow keys, which is a habit I picked up from many years of using mac laptops where fn + arrow keys is how you get those keys anyway.

Layers 0 and 3 are the really important ones, 1 and 2 are just the defaults from Ergodox. And while they are assigned, I currently haven't been using the capslock, the lower-left ', the lower-right [ ] and cmd+enter keys or the Meh key so those would be freed up for use if needed. I also turned on the "auto-shift" functionality, so if you liked that it would also free up the left and right shifts for other use.

The letter layout is "middlemak"[2] which I found to be more comfortable than qwerty or colemak on the ortholinear layout, and a bit easier to learn than colemak because it shares a lot of keys with qwerty. But that may not be relevant for you if you're using a non-english key set.

[1]: https://configure.zsa.io/ergodox-ez-st/layouts/pNO0G/latest/... [2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/Middlemak/

[culebron21]

Interesting layout. I see I forgot the `=` also does not fit in ED-EZ.

My problem with it is 1) lack of F11 & F12. 2) important keys in upper row of the thumb block. How do you press those keys without stopping everything and looking at the kbd?

[tpmoney]

I've been thinking of adding F11 and F12 (and F13) to the keys under `Del` on layer 3 (basically the same thing ED does by default on layer 1). As for the thumb block, that took me some time to work out because I thought hitting all those buttons would be easier than it is. So what you see is effectively my attempt to duplicate as many buttons in places that generally make them fit the combinations I need to hit when I need to hit them.

On the left side, `Cmd` is the first button because on a mac, that's the most important modifier key and that position is the "natural" position for my hands.

Next `enter` (or really on a mac, `return`) with the alternative function of being `Ctrl` if held down. I rarely need `Cmd + Ctrl` but those two are pretty big tagets and easy to mash together.

For the smaller buttons, the layer switch is accessible without a large hand shift, so that is why its in its position at the bottom.

Above I have `Option/Alt` and `Ctrl` above that. The idea is not to use those all that often, but to use them if I need `Ctrl + Alt` or need the `Alt` key and can't use the one on the right side for some reason. If I need to use these two in that position, I do usually have to look at the keys (though currently as I work through learning middlemak... I'm looking at the keys a lot anyway).

Finally `Del` is where it is mostly because it doesn't require a huge hand shift (though I usually press with my index finger instead of thumb), and I liked having a forward delete on a dedicated key. Again bearing in mind I'm used to typing on laptop keyboards/75% layouts, so my other usual is `Fn + Backspace` for a forward delete, so needing to shift my hand isn't a huge concern for me.

On the right side, the same thought went into laying things out in a way that made sense for my habitual modifier usage while being as redundant as possible. On the far right, space obviously, again in the position that's most "natural" to my hands.

Followed by another `enter/return` with again the alternate function, this time of `Option/Alt` when held. Having two enter keys isn't something I make a lot of use of (I don't alternate which hand is enter when typing for example) but it allows me to make use of that alternate functionality and still be able to hit enter with a modifier held down and no need to move my hands or find one of the harder to hit keys. `Option/Alt` takes this position because Ctrl has it on the other side and also because my most common `Option + ${key}` combos are `Option + Left/Right Arrow` for skipping by word and the arrows are on the other half so no weird hand contortions (and again, coming from a laptop, I usually did that with two hands anyway. Incidentally, this also means I can use the layer3 hold on the left hand, and option + the arrows in the letter cluster (ijkl on a qwerty layout) that I programmed into layer 3 if I really need to do a lot of arrowing around.

`Cmd` sits in the lower left because again, it's the most common modifier in macOS. I don't often need the left side one, but it gets more ease of access than ctrl because when I need it, I need it.

`Ctrl` sits above option and again, the aim here isn't to use it on its own. In this case, the position allows me to shift my thumb up slightly and easily hit a `Ctrl + Alt` key combination (and for that matter shifting left instead of up gives a pretty easy `Cmd + Option`

Lastly Pg Up/Dn are there because I like having dedicated buttons for them instead of needing a layer shift. I don't often use them during a typing session but more for paging through docs or reference material, so usually my hands are off the keys in the first place, and needing to look at them if I'm not finding it by quick feel isn't a huge problem for me.

I should also say this is probably by 5th or 6th iteration on those clusters and it will probably change more in the future. I'm slowly honing in to something that I really like, but it has taken some serious paying attention to what I actually do. My first attempt was a lot more "normal" with a row of modifiers in order, or my second attempt that put the modifiers all on the small keys and used the larger ones for more layer shifts (hence all the Cmd + Key items on layer 3). Turns out I'm not a huge fan of constantly switching layers, probably because I'm a terrible touch typist who on a regular qwerty keyboard mostly uses just 3 fingers on each hand so keeping my hands in one place and letting the keys "come to me" with layeer shifts feels wrong.

[culebron21]

Thanks for the detailed description. The idea with different function on hold is interesting. I wonder that you don't have the Tab key. Is it not used on Mac at all?

I also tried different layouts, experimenting about half a year, and in the end found the backspace under right thumb quite convenient (probably bc I still make a lot of typos on EDEZ).

[tpmoney]

Tab is up next to the Q on the left side, same place in qwerty. I tried using backspace in the thumb cluster for a bit, and it was convenient, but I found because I don't have good "home row" discipline, I was accidentally deleting too often.