[screye]

I dislike RTO because none of that happens anymore. The economic landscape is too paranoid (despite positive macro indicators) for employees to enjoy work.

People don't want to chit chat, just clock in clock out. Layoffs threat is ever present. Remote & odd-time zone meetings are still here. Can't turn off my computer after 5pm. In office benefits are limited. Mentoring, learning-seminars and after-work activities are soft discouraged.

Why even come in ? _____________

> what's the point of a city like New York

I agree that RTO mandates have to do with keeping downtown office space prices high. But, if you could work from anywhere, why wouldn't you want to be in the coolest city in the world? You don't need to be in Manhattan. But you can get some pretty great apartments while still being a 30 minutes subway ride from downtown.

I visited NYC regularly through Covid, and it seemed quite lively.

Remember, us programmers are a famously introverted & indoor bunch. Most people want to be in places with rich social lives apart from their smaller intimate communities.

[tharne]

> But, if you could work from anywhere, why wouldn't you want to be in the coolest city in the world?

Large cities are like black licorice. The people who like them, really like them, but most of us think they're kind of gross.

[999900000999]

Big cities are okay, it's just New York and San Francisco and particular are so wildly expensive I'd have to make another 70 to $80,000 a year for it to make sense .

But that's not what I'm seeing in the market, I'm seeing recruiters tell me for another 10k I can have the privilege of moving to the NYC or The Bay.

[screye]

It's more like eating meat. You need to get past major mental blocks before getting used to it.

Americans start conversations with assumptions like:

* We need space because all amenities must be privately owned at home

* You should be able to drive everywhere

* 30 minutes driving is the same as 30 minutes on transit

* Street walking & biking are unsafe hobbies, not modes of transport

* The average American city is a representative city.

It's impossible to have conversations with someone who starts from these base assumptions.

Given that cities are uniformly more desired in the rest of the world, the American city hate has to do with deliberate actions that stripped-out cities from 1950s-2000s. In other countries and cities insulated from these changes, the criticisms fall flat.

[tharne]

> In other countries and cities insulated from these changes, the criticisms fall flat.

Yes and no. Much of the world does a better job with their cities than the U.S., and as a result there is a little more demand for that type of development.

But overall, preferences are shockingly similar across cultures.

Anywhere people have the means to afford automobiles, they tend to buy them and increasingly embrace a suburban life style, at least at an aggregate level. If you look at new construction in places like Western Europe or China, a lot of new development is very similar to what you see in the U.S., with a bit of local flavor thrown in.

[screye]

This doesn't match my experiences with India, SEA or mainland Europe.

Suburban lifestyle can only exist in a world where urban areas already exist. They rely on the city-dwellers to create the experiences, entertainment & economic hubs. Then suburbanites separate themselves from the city, reducing geographic inflow and tax outflow, while demanding equal access to all of those amenities. It's a one-way street.

Cities around the world are becoming wise to it. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Amenities like free parking for all, wide streets, downtown interstates & property taxes based sequestering defined the 1950s-2000s suburban chokehold. As a result, city dwellers experienced suburbanite imposed forced misery. With the return of bike lanes, traffic calming, interstate removal and congestion pricing, city dwellers are beginning to reclaim the city for themselves. Or so I hope.

[surgical_fire]

A lot of people actually despise living in major cities. I was born in one, a huge metropolis, and lived in it for the most of my life. For a long time I was forced to live there, because the jobs were there too.

In may ways, the pandemic was a blessing for me. Remote work allowed me to move to a small city, closer to a rural area. If depends solely on my desire, I will never again live in a major city.

[bdangubic]

I am not sure if “a lot” is correct assessment. I live in urban area and most of my friends have either been fully remote before C19 or after. no one wants to move anywhere even though we could all live wherever. urban areas have numerous other advantages besides better job markets, especially if you have kids. schools, sports, theatre, etc etc.

[surgical_fire]

If we qre exchanging anecdotes, I do know plenty of people that either moved out to the countryside, or would be willing to move if they were sure they could work remote indefinitely.

I'd even say that having kids is one major factor in wanting to move out of big cities.