[JPKab]

There should be zero targeting of ethnicity. Excluding people based on ethnicity is wrong, no matter what the ethnic group is. And what makes you so sure that black men would relate to black women better than they would men of other ethnic backgrounds? Which is the bigger divider, gender or ethnicity?

The point I am making isn't that this isn't a good thing, because as I said in my original post, helping any disadvantaged group of people is a good thing. I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy in doing it based on race. Why not make it CityGirlsCode? If the argument for BlackGirlsCode is so logical, why would it be wrong to have an organization called WhiteGirlsCode in the poor areas of Appalachia? It's wrong in both instances, its just that modern political correctness has taught you that it's ok to discriminate based on race as long as it isn't favoring whites.

[peterwwillis]

I'm kind of struggling to figure out how to explain this.

You know how there's very few women in IT/CS?

You know how there's very few black people in IT/CS?

You know how people have been trying to figure out, 'Hey, how do we get more women and black people into IT/CS?'

This solves both problems.

What you're basically telling me is that trying to take people who generally have to struggle the most in life, and have the hardest time trying to get into technology, that helping them is wrong (morally? ethically?) and should be stopped because we should ignore the fact that they have a harder time than most because you don't like the idea of talking about race, or sex, or anything in specifics.

Wake up, pal. This is the real world. In the real world, people don't get treated fairly, and they don't get to live exactly the same lives. We should strive to help people that need it the most, yes, and sometimes this means working with one of those groups.

One of the reasons we do this is because there are special considerations when dealing with a specific group. Women, for example. They don't want arrogant objectifying men to intimidate them as they try to learn a new, difficult, intimidating subject. So there are organizations that try to help just women, to get around these problems.

Black people have their own problems to deal with. Sometimes, it affects those who live in economically-depressed clusters of an area. Most of the time, this is an overwhelmingly large number of the population of that area. As a result, it becomes significantly more challenging for a black person in that area to do something like learn to program than a white person in that area, and thus, they need a little more support.

It's not wrong to acknowledge this. It's just a fact of life. And in helping specific people who are having a hard time of things, we help those who are (in some cases) in the most need.

So please, get off your fucking high horse and give these people some credit for actually trying to help people.

[mindstab]

You don't get it. By "not discriminating" you are essentially discriminating against everyone who isn't in the majority. People are not these ideal unxenophobic people. You say you grew up in a black neighborhood but I'm going to guess you are a white male yourself.

People group by like and are often exclusionary. Look at Gnome and Google's summer of code. They have started doing specifically female targeted ones because they females are there but aren't applying to the normal ones for a myrid of reasons plenty of which are mighty valid.

I'm sorry but targeted helping is needed and is a good thing. Stop over reacting because for the first time you almost nearly kind of feel the sting of discrimination. All is not even close to equal.

[colmvp]

"You don't get it. By "not discriminating" you are essentially discriminating against everyone who isn't in the majority. People are not these ideal unxenophobic people. You say you grew up in a black neighborhood but I'm going to guess you are a white male yourself."

This a million times over. White men have certain inherent advantages over other demographic makeups in the Western world that it's laughable a white guy would feel offended by this small little group that's marginalized. It's like a rich person being offended that a non-for-profit just exists for poor people.

[_delirium]

> There should be zero targeting of ethnicity.

So I shouldn't be allowed to volunteer with the American Hellenic Progressive Association, a group dedicated towards looking at problems and interests specific to Greek-Americans? Why not? Not every group can target every community's problems, so it sometimes makes sense to target subgroups imo.

[peterwwillis]

Apparently that makes you racist.

[felipemnoa]

Look, it's simple. There has been an imbalance for a long time. One group is lagging behind because of hundreds of years of slavery, discrimination and oppression. Being a black women means that she was being doubly oppressed, one for being black and the other for being a women. What is happening in this particular example is that somebody is trying to fix the injustice that happened against a specific demographic for hundreds of years.

Even though slavery and "separate but equal" are gone, and finally women have the right to vote, the effects of all that oppression is still being felt because of inertia (i.e. they are trapped in a cycle of poverty). The healing from all that oppression is happening slowly and some people are just trying to speed it up.

At least I think that is what is happening here.

[rmc]

Excluding people based on ethnicity is wrong, no matter what the ethnic group is.

I disagree. In an ideal world, yes you're right. But that's not reality. In this world, it's OK. It's good and moral to try to eliminate the inherent disadvantages that some groups have. It's better in the long term. This is the right thing to do.

it's ok to discriminate based on race as long as it isn't favoring whites.

Pretty much yes. Non-whites have much less power, ergo they need it.

[colmvp]

"...its just that modern political correctness has taught you that it's ok to discriminate based on race as long as it isn't favoring whites."

That's because white men have less barriers to... well everything.

[tysonjennings]

Dude, I'm a fairly new user with low karma but I'm going to burn every bit of it up in this one post so I'm going to try to make it good.

First, let me ask you a question. What's the poorest country in the western hemisphere? Haiti. What makes it "special"? Now, what's the poorest most impoverished continent in the world? Africa. What makes it "special"? I think you get the picture.

I'm going to tell you a little secret. Black people statistically speaking are intellectually inferior. You don't have to like it, I don't have to like it, the Hacker News zeitgeist doesn't have to like it but it's true.

The question is, what do you do about that. Do you pretend everybody is the same and give everybody equal opportunity sink or swim? That sounds good in the libertarian utopia but the fact is we live in the real world and if you do that you are going to have a class of people that will never reach parity no matter what happens. Left to their own devices, black people are incapable as a group to ever reach the cultural and social level of white and Asian people.

That being the case, you can either live with that which is a non-starter unless you want downtown SF look like downtown Johannesburg. So the only realistic option is to "stack the deck". Everyone that has ever thought about it for more than 5 minutes realizes that this has to happen in order for our mixed society to remain sane. The ivory tower "liberals" understand this far more than you realize and despite the public rhetoric of equality, behind the scenes, the dials are turned to make sure that despite the fact that blacks could never compete on merit, there is just enough stacked in their favor and just subtly enough that they have at least some chance. Thus programs like BlackGirlsCode.

And that's it. I don't like it. I wish blacks were on par intellectually but that just isn't the case and won't be anytime soon so I buy in to this "fix". Give it some thought and you might too.

BTW, before you get too far off on your own superiority remember that Ashkenazi jews (Einstein, etc.) are statistically a fifth to a full standard deviation above the average in mathematical and verbal IQ tests. Ever wonder why something like 50 percent of the nobel prizes go to them? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence

Bye bye Karma.

[JPKab]

Old studies show that intelligence is largely genetic. New studies are increasingly showing that it is much, much, more influenced by environment. This isn't reddit, so nobody can downvote you. You know what you said was offensive, but you probably don't know that what you said is completely, absolutely scientifically inaccurate. I could answer this with data, but instead I'll be anecdotal. It's not scientific, but it speaks a little for the science. My best friend growing up (his family lived a mile away from my trailer park) was a black kid. His family practically took me in. His mom was a lawyer and his dad was a cop. They worked their asses off teaching their kids right. Both children became stellar successes in academics. High SAT scores, the whole package. Their influence on ME was huge. Without them I would've ended up like my white trash family. It was their culture that helped me get out of the cycle of poverty. It was their culture that created an environment of learning that fostered higher IQ's in their kids, and by proxy, me. Culture, not race, is what drives environment. Environment drives intelligence. I don't want to sit here and call you a racist, or say anything mean. I just want you to read this and change as a person, and realize that what you believe to be true is wrong. My buddy and his family are still very close with me. We hang out on a weekly basis, and he is a role model to me in his accomplishments as a professional and a father. I wish I was half the guy he was. If just a third of the black men in America had been raised the way he was, America would be in much better shape as a country.

[tysonjennings]

"New studies are increasingly showing that it is much, much, more influenced by environment."

Let me translate: we have a socially responsible conclusion now let's design a study that produces it.

"This isn't reddit, so nobody can downvote you."

When you get karma over 150, you will see a little arrow pointing down next to each comment.

"You know what you said was offensive, but you probably don't know that what you said is completely, absolutely scientifically inaccurate."

Have fun deluding yourself.

"I could answer this with data, but instead I'll be anecdotal."

Of course you'll be anecdotal. I would expect no less.

"My best friend"

Bored already.

[dinkumthinkum]

Where are your studies that show that black children that grow up in actual middle class homes in non-impoverished communities do substantially worse than their white counter parts? By your position they should be as illiterate as those in deep poverty.

This is a key point. You are completely dismissing environmental factors. So therefore, under your ridiculous argument we should see no significant difference between the supposed "intellectual inferiority" of black people between those two groups. How could there be? You have stated that would be done clearly because it is genetic. However, your case now fails completely.

You're just a racist and you want to proffer your position in a way that tries to make fun of those that agree with your racism as either being naive or "liberal fools" or whatever. But it is you that are deceived.

[tysonjennings]

"Where are your studies that show that black children that grow up in actual middle class homes in non-impoverished communities do substantially worse than their white counter parts? By your position they should be as illiterate as those in deep poverty.

This is a key point. You are completely dismissing environmental factors.

You're just a racist"

I'm going to stop quoting right there because you are mistaken. Only in your own absurd caricature of me that you've created do I completely discount environmental factors. Of course children of any race, all things being equal, will statistically thrive better in a stable environment. That doesn't discount hereditary factors though which are also very important. There are lots of rigorous scientific studies that support the existence of hereditary intelligence and that it is typically lower in blacks. I realize there is a certain amount of "controversy" among psychometrists in the area of white vs black intellect but a great deal of it is political and manufactured. People like you that scream "racist blah blah" are the ones that stunt science and progress but go on and make me out to be your boogeyman and twist my words how you want so that you don't have to consider what I'm saying. Whatever makes you feel better, buddy.

[peterwwillis]

Did you know that White people are statistically more likely to consider themselves superior to non-White people?

Also, it's obvious why Jews get more nobel prizes. Since they control the media and the banks, they get better education and better publication of their work. Duh! Don't believe me? Type in "jews control " in Google and check out the auto-complete results. Proof.

[tysonjennings]

You think you're being clever by mocking me? Just for the record the people that believe themselves the most clever are the ones least qualified to make the judgement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

[king_jester]

The fact that you cite the Dunning–Kruger effect while providing no evidence, citations, or logical arguments in your OP is quite amazing.

[tysonjennings]

This is a web forum not a dissertation. Do your own research.

[king_jester]

You asserted that black people are of lower intelligence than other groups of people without any citation or argument. You also argued that the status of Haiti and Africa (two unalike things, btw, as one is a country and another a continent) is solely due to this lack of intelligence instead of a history of exploitation and colonialism. Then, you cite the Dunning–Kruger effect as a way to dismiss criticism.

I am merely pointing out that you 1) offer no info, 2) clearly are racist, and 3) believe yourself that you have a superior point of view on this story. What you have said is contradictory and it is essential that this is pointed out so that others see why you are so very wrong.

[peterwwillis]

Nah, I just think you're a douchebag and felt like being snarky.

[tysonjennings]

"Nah, I just think you're a douchebag and felt like being snarky."

I see you're an arrogant prick in addition to the mental midgetry. Don't forget to keep those defenses up in the future. Don't argue intelligently. Seek to marginalize your opponent. That'll make you feel better. :)

[rmc]

The poorest countries in Europe are ethnically Catholic. By your logic, catholics are stupid. Stupid mentally inferior JFK.

[tysonjennings]

I'm not arguing that blacks are "stupid" because they are poor. It astounds me that you would misinterpret my words so grossly.

[rmc]

Eh, yes you did:

What's the poorest country in the western hemisphere? Haiti. What makes it "special"? Now, what's the poorest most impoverished continent in the world? Africa. What makes it "special"? I think you get the picture.

You implied "poverty, ergo stupidity"

[Jach]

I interpreted it the other way around, it's easy to get mixed up when subjects are sensitive. He's not trying a deductive argument (which would be trivially defeated by pointing to, off the top of my head, Perelman, and many others one which you also tried), his approach is inductive. He's offering statements about reality as evidence which are consistent with the hypothesis that "black people are stupider on average". That hypothesis was also made and argued pre- and post-civil war in America, along with the prediction that subjecting the freed slaves to the economic slavery of the north was a worse fate because it was possible to work full-time and still not be able to afford adequate living, something we also see more clearly in east-Asian sweat shops today but also more subtly (i.e. the actual conditions are better but real choices and freedoms are nonexistent) all around America.

Another approach to having a useful discussion is "What would the world look like if 'black people are stupider on average' was true, and if it was false?"

Of course his post wasn't careful enough since you still misinterpreted it, it's even possible I misinterpreted as well, but even if I'm wrong I consider my reading more charitable and if you seek a discussion it's better to pick the more charitable one given alternatives.

Of course, you could just flame him as others are doing. Might be better to just downvote and ignore (as many are as well).

[rmc]

If that bar of 'acceptable evidence' is set so that those examples can be used to support the theory that "black people are stupider than average", then my examples of poor catholic countries in europe should be acceptable to support the theory that "catholics are stupidier on average".

There used to be a lot of discrimination against people based on religious groups within christianity. But now catholics are considered white.

[tysonjennings]

"Of course, you could just flame him as others are doing. Might be better to just downvote and ignore (as many are as well)."

Yep, in the absence of actual argument just marginalize. I'm sure you feel much better now.

[jbattle]

I'm pretty sure he stated, not implied, that "blacks" are untermenschen

[dinkumthinkum]

>Dude, I'm a fairly new user with low karma but I'm going to burn every bit of it up in this one post so I'm going to try to make it good. >First, let me ask you a question. What's the poorest country in the western hemisphere? Haiti. What makes it "special"? Now, what's the poorest most impoverished continent in the world? Africa. What makes it "special"? I think you get the picture.

What utter racist drivel is this? In a later comment you get upset by someone equating your position with thinking intelligence with economic status but you are clearly making such a claim here. Well, by and large Asia is a pretty dirt poor continent as well, what do you have to say about that? Do you think Africa just popped into existence recently? There is a whole historical force at work. OK, clearly Africa as continent (I guess we have to ignore Egypt under your view) has done a pretty bad job developing large civilizations/militaries and eventually becoming a world Imperial power. The connection between Haiti and Africa as two "separate" examples is pretty ignorant, do you know how Haiti become populated with all those people? Are familiar with this idea called the slave trade?

>I'm going to tell you a little secret. Black people statistically speaking are intellectually inferior. You don't have to like it, I don't have to like it, the Hacker News zeitgeist doesn't have to like it but it's true.

Prove it. That's a bold claim and linking to a bunch of white supremacist web sites or links to Wikipedia that admit not credibility won't help you prove your argument Herr Doktor. It is not "Hacker News zeitgeist" to say that you are proffering a pretty controversial statement with no evidence in fact is very incidiary. I agree that if there was actual, we should admit, but there is no truth to this notion Herr Doctor.

>The question is, what do you do about that. Do you pretend everybody is the same and give everybody equal opportunity sink or swim? That sounds good in the libertarian utopia but the fact is we live in the real world and if you do that you are going to have a class of people that will never reach parity no matter what happens.

>Left to their own devices, black people are incapable as a group to ever reach the cultural and social level of white and Asian people.

That's just ridiculous. I'm still waiting for the proof.

>That being the case, you can either live with that which is a non-starter unless you want downtown SF look like downtown Johannesburg.

Do you think such phenomena does not exist in white or Asian cultures? If that is the case you are either very naive, ignorant, or have never traveled anywhere but the last is no excuse because apparently you do have the Internet. What you allude to exists in droves among white populations, without question.

>So the only realistic option is to "stack the deck". Everyone that has ever thought about it for more than 5 minutes realizes that this has to happen in order for our mixed society to remain sane. The ivory tower "liberals" understand this far more than you realize and despite the public rhetoric of equality, behind the scenes, the dials are turned to make sure that despite the fact that blacks could never compete on merit, there is just enough stacked in their favor and just subtly enough that they have at least some chance. Thus programs like BlackGirlsCode. >And that's it. I don't like it. I wish blacks were on par intellectually but that just isn't the case and won't be anytime soon so I buy in to this "fix". Give it some thought and you might too.

This is just trash and so are you. Where is the evidence. There is quite the evidence to the contrary. If this was the case why are there so many black PhDs, scientists, etc. Sure, there is not as many for various non-genetic reasons but under your view they shouldn't even exist. How could do they? I mean under your view, perhpas there could be ONE because I guess you'd argue that person would be like strange anomaly but there are clearly more than that. It's ridiculous. In fact, we don't even need to point to PhDs and other scientists, because you are arguing blacks are intellectually inferior. Have you ever met a black a person other than when you might be running scared from crackheads in downtown San Francisco? There are white crackheads to you know.

>BTW, before you get too far off on your own superiority remember that Ashkenazi jews (Einstein, etc.) are statistically a fifth to a full standard deviation above the average in mathematical and verbal IQ tests. Ever wonder why something like 50 percent of the nobel prizes go to them? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence

You make a bad argument for intelligence when you seem to be unable to read and comprehend your own Wikipedia links. Ever read your own Wikipedia links? There is nothing contained that article that amounts to anything scientific other than some vague references to a cultural tradition of close study and scholarship as well as increased economic position.

Do you think a complete lack of anything resembling science does not matter as long as your point is a racist one?

>Bye bye Karma.

Stop projecting.

[tysonjennings]

"What utter racist drivel is this?"

Yes, I'm expecting some real intelligent debate outta this one.

"In a later comment you get upset by someone equating your position with thinking intelligence with economic status but you are clearly making such a claim here."

I see just like the other guy reading comprehension isn't your strong point.

"do you know how Haiti become populated with all those people? Are familiar with this idea called the slave trade?"

Slavery and colonialism ended in Haiti a long time ago but lets keep making excuses. Have you considered the possibility that using historical happenings as a crutch might be part of the reason real progress isn't being made in Haiti? What if the Asians who suffered on the railroads in 19th century US made the same types of excuses? What about Indians that suffered under British rule? Kurds in Iraq? And on and on.

I'm sorry, I'm done with debating you idiots for one day. This has become a time sink into collective delusion and willful ignorance. Buh bye.