[miav]

Could anyone more knowledgeable on the topic explain to what extent common wireless connectivity standards are open and feasible to implement for, say, a medium sized company? Apple has been working on a 5G modem for what feels like a billion years, but other standards seem to be more democratized.

[jauntywundrkind]

The availability of hardware seems semi moot, since afaik there's basically no way to get spectrum short of big national auctions.

But now that T-Mobile is renegging their promise & not going to meet the minimum deployment size they promised, they have been saying the FCC should find a way to sell by area some of that spectrum sitting dormant in such a wide wide % of America (personally I think it makes their bid invalid & they should forefeit their bid for such egregious dirty lying). https://www.lightreading.com/5g/t-mobile-relinquishes-mmwave...

I think some of the analog tv spectrum has some precedent for being sold per-area rather than nation wide, but I'm not sure how that's been going.

In terms of hardware, there's some fascinating stuff. Facebook's SuperCell large-tower project showed awesome scale out possibility for large towers. Their Terragraph effort is spun out, and seems to have some solid customers using their hardware. Meta spun off their EvenStar 5G system, which has a strong presence at Open compute now. https://www.opencompute.org/projects/evenstar-open-radio-uni...

But it's hard to tell how acquireable such a thing really is. There's plenty of existing nodes out there too. It is unclear to me though how acquireable such things really are- there not being an open market, since there's no usable spectrum feels like a conundrum for the market, even though these are extremely high volume amazingly integrated advanced wireless systems that you'd think would be visibly prolific.

[cyberax]

> The availability of hardware seems semi moot, since afaik there's basically no way to get spectrum short of big national auctions.

You can run 5G in the unlicensed spectrum. AWS can rent you hardware for it: https://aws.amazon.com/private5g/ - it's $5k a month per site. I know a plant that switched to that because they couldn't get WiFi to work reliably for them.

But even if you want to run within the licensed spectrum, local licenses for a couple of bands are cheap. I was involved in setting up a private network in the licensed spectrum around 10 years ago (based on https://aviatnetworks.com/ ), and a local site spectrum license was something ridiculously small (in the range of a hundred dollars).

It's expensive if you want to do it nation-wide.

[user_7832]

From my limited understanding, the issue for Apple et al isn’t making a 5g chip, it’s making the chip small, cheap, power efficient enough and capable of having “decent” reception. I’d imagine existing patents by Qualcomm certainly make it a bit more challenging on terms of available (design) options.

[monocasa]

Fabrice Bellard open sourced a 4G (LTE) base station.

https://bellard.org/lte/

[vbitz]

It doesn't seam open source?

> The LTE/NR eNodeB/gNodeB software is commercialized by Amarisoft.

> A UE simulator is now available. It simulates hundreds of terminals sharing the same antenna. It uses the same hardware configuration as the LTE eNodeB.

> An embebbed NB-IoT modem based on Amarisoft UE software.

[chupasaurus]

Yep, the word "source" never mentioned.

[doublepg23]

I assume Fabrice Bellard will crack cold fusion as a side project some day.

[throw5959]

What do you mean by implementing? Make your own radio chips, designed from the ground up? Or merely producing a networking device using chips from suppliers like Intel, TI, Broadcom, Qualcomm etc? Or the software side only?

[sdmike1]

Stuff for GSM/CDMA has been around for years, OpenBTS is the primary example. This is the first I've heard of anything more modern/complicated being implemented. From my understanding, a lot of the hard eng work is in the RF frontend and making it small/low power enough to fit in a phone for example. OpenBTS got around this by using existing SRDs for their RF frontend.

[diggan]

WiFi, Bluetooth and Zigbee has bunch of public specifications and knowledge about it to make it feasible. AFAIK, the specifications for 4G/5G is publicly available but extremely complex + you'd need licensing agreements, pay royalties, etc. So unless this imaginary company of yours have specialized expertise in all that, it seems unlikely to be feasible.

[bri3d]

The big problem is patents and copyright. No common wireless standards are open. No wireless standards are feasible to implement. Seriously. It's that bad. Certainly a modern 4G/5G standard is complex from a hardware standpoint to implement - the way you usually do these is using a very powerful embedded DSP, which is also not open (Qualcomm Hexagon is the most reverse-engineered of these if you want to understand what's going on). But the thing that's holding Apple up is purely legal IMO.

[ksec]

>No common wireless standards are open, No wireless standards are feasible to implement.

What is definition of "Open" here?

The current submission is entirely about Open Source 4G/5G. Fabrice Bellard on top of the crazy amount of other stuff he did also made a LTE/NR Base Station Software [1]. WiFi and Bluetooth are also "Open".

>But the thing that's holding Apple up is purely legal IMO

People constantly mistaken having an open standard regardless of patents and an useable product on the market. There is no reason why you cant have a software modem aka Icera that was acquired by Nvidia in the early 10s. And there are no modem monopoly by Qualcomm which is common misconception across all the threads on HN and wider internet. MediaTek, Samsung, Huawei, Spreadtrum and a few others have been shipping 4G / 5G Modem on the market for years.

The only reason why Apple hasn't released a modem 6 years after they acquired the modem asset from Intel is because having a decent modem, performance / watt comparatively to what on market is Hard. Insanely hard. You have Telecoms from top 50 market each with slightly different hardware software spectrum combination and scenario along with different climate and terrains. It took Mediatek and Samsung years with lots of testing and real world usage at the lower end phone to gain valuable insight. Still not as good as Qualcomm but at least it gets to a point no one is complaining as much.

[1] https://bellard.org/lte/

[bri3d]

> What is definition of "Open" here?

Patent unencumbered in a way that someone could make a commercially viable implementation as a "small or midsized" company, as the parent post asked. Open Source proves my point - the issue is not implementation (note - I'm not claiming implementation isn't hard, it is - I certainly know from personal experience that it is and I would never claim to be able to personally build an energy efficient 4G or 5G modem, but I don't think that raw engineering horsepower is what's holding Apple/Intel/NVidia back here).

> MediaTek, Samsung, Huawei, Spreadtrum and a few others have been shipping 4G / 5G Modem on the market for years.

The CCP effectively told Qualcomm to get lost in 2015 and Taiwan settled an antitrust agreement between them and MediaTek in 2018, so MediaTek, Huawei, and Unisoc/Spreadtrum are not good examples here. I believe the South Korean government also intervened on behalf of Samsung. Actually, the list of modem vendors you list pretty much matches exactly the list of governments who prosecuted, fined, and settled with Qualcomm for antitrust.

[RF_Savage]

>Patent unencumbered in a way that someone could make a commercially viable implementation.

Doesn't this exclude all modern cellular standards then?

[msh]

yes.

[throwup238]

If I remember correctly, all the documentation needed to implement a 5G radio approaches 10,000 pages. It’s not only insanely long and complicated but there’s a nasty path dependency with most of 4G which is why Intel and now Apple have such a hard time getting their radios to the finish line. Poaching a few Qualcomm or Broadcom employees with better salaries is one thing but without the cumulative expertise contained within the companies, it’s almost impossible to bootstrap a new radio.

[mschuster91]

> Apple has been working on a 5G modem for what feels like a billion years, but other standards seem to be more democratized.

The main problem is the sheer age of mobile phone networks. A phone has to support everything from top-modern 5G down to 2G to be usable across the world, that's almost as much garbage that a baseband/modem FW/HW has to drag along as Intel has to with the x86 architecture.

And if that isn't complex enough, phones have to be able to deal with quirks of all kinds of misbehaving devices - RF is shared media after all, and there's devices not complying with the standard, the standards containing ambiguous or undefined behavior specs, completely third-party services blasting wholly incompatible signals around (e.g. DVB-T operates on frequencies in some countries that are used for phone service in other countries, and often on much much higher TX power than phone tower sites). If it can't handle that or, worse, disrupts other legitimate RF users, certification won't be possible.

But that experience in dealing with about 35 years worth of history is just one part of the secret sauce - that just makes the costs of entry for FOSS projects really huge (which is why all of these projects I'm aware of support only 4G and afterwards since that generation is the first one to throw away all the legacy garbage).

The other part of why there are so few vendors is patents, and there is a toooooon of patent holders for 5G [1], with the top holders being either Chinese or known for being excessively litigious (Qualcomm). And even assuming you manage to work out deals with all of the patent holders (because of course there is, to my knowledge at least, no "one stop shop" compared to say MPEG), you still have to get a design that fulfills your requirements for raw performance, can coexist peacefully with almost all other users of the RF spectrum to be power efficient at the same time. That is the main challenge for Apple IMHO - they have a lot of experience doing that with "classic" SoCs, but almost none for RF hardware, virtually all of that comes from external vendors.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1276457/leading-owners-o...