[woodruffw]

They have a say insofar as they can participate in the same standards process as everyone else. But no, the PSF has no unique say in how PyPI is run, or how pip behaves. This is a pretty fundamental aspect of how Python-qua-ecosystem works.

[LtWorf]

They have a say in that if it doesn't behave like they want they can point the documentation to something that does. If pip is the tool linked in the documentation it's the official one that has the PSF's blessing, clearly.

[woodruffw]

We're going in circles. PSF can't unilaterally change any documentation of particular relevance here; the most immediately relevant docs would be controlled by PyPA and PyPI itself. The former has a standards/community review process, and the latter is particular to PyPI.

But again: this has nothing to do with blessings or not. The fact that pip is the official installer and PyPI is the official index does not mean that everything about them stems from an official edict. That's not how Python's community is structured, and it's certainly not how the technical development on anything in Python packaging has ever progressed.

[LtWorf]

Who controls the python.org domain that I linked? Am I wrong to think that PSF controls it?

[woodruffw]

PSF controls that domain. But that domain doesn’t host PyPI (anymore) or the PyPA docs, so I’m not sure what connection you’re making there.

[LtWorf]

https://docs.python.org/3/installing/index.html

so it's PSF's decision to document using pip, right? And they might decide to change that page without asking for anyone's consent right?

So they also don't get to complain about pip's shortcomings because it is their decision to point users towards pip. Correct?

Have I been explicit enough for you now?

[woodruffw]

You've pointed to a stub document that basically explains Python packaging and why pip comes with Python (which, notably, distributions are fond of breaking).

This doesn't somehow imply that Python has a top-down authority structure where the PSF dictates the development flow of PyPI, pip, or any other official/semi-official/blessed tooling or infrastructure. That's not how Python works as a community.

The PSF is also not complaining here about pip's shortcomings. I'm the only one here and I don't represent the PSF, nor am I complaining: I think pip is great. I'm trying to explain (apparently unsuccessfully) why pip (and PyPI's) behavior isn't always 100% congruous with a single stream of development thinking. As mentioned above there are more optimal structures given different kinds of governance and community, but this one aligns with the (IMO good) values that the Python community espouses.