[krapp]

Read the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

The US penal system is explicitly a continuation of the former slave system. Slavery wasn't outlawed in the US, just made a monopoly franchise of the US government. It isn't coincidental that so many prisons were built on former plantation property, or that the incarceration rate of black men is so high.

[like_any_other]

> The US penal system is explicitly a continuation of the former slave system.

Penal labor is not exclusive to the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labour

> It isn't coincidental that so many prisons were built on former plantation property, or that the incarceration rate of black men is so high.

32% of prisoners are Black: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St...

56% of homicide perpetrators are Black: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_S...

Using homicide as indicator of general criminality because it's hard to fudge the numbers or inflate them with over-policing. Granted the correspondence is surely not perfect, but given such a parsimonious explanation, we'd need strong justification to reach for conspiratorial alternatives.

[jmyeet]

Not sure who's downvoting this because the comment is objectively correct [1][2][3].

The practice of "convict leasing" is modern day slavery. This system should be abolished or, at a minimum, the prisoners should be paid at least minimum wage so we don't have the state to pay to lock people up and then some private corporation to profit off slave labor.

[1]: https://harvardpolitics.com/involuntary-servitude-how-prison...

[2]: https://innocenceproject.org/how-the-13th-amendment-kept-sla...

[3]: https://www.newsweek.com/book-american-slavery-continued-unt...

[smsm42]

> the prisoners should be paid at least minimum wage so we don't have the state to pay to lock people up and then some private corporation to profit off slave labor.

Minimum wage is supposed to cover sustainable food, shelter, clothing and other basic physical needs (leaving aside the question whether it really does, it is the intent). The prisoner has these basic physical needs already taken care of. Therefore, it makes no sense to pay both prisoner and a free low-wage worker the same. Moreover, if it were the situation, the very next day every paper would have a headline "Workers are being paid prisoner wages - outrage!"

However, if the prisoners are allowed to work for commercial for-profit companies, the company that benefits from this work should be asked to cover a substantial part of the prisoner's sustenance bill - which also would be to the taxpayer's benefit. Of course, participation in such programs should be strictly voluntary - I imagine prison life is not too fun, so there should be a number of people who would agree to do it even for a relatively very low wage. That said, it could be incentivized e.g. by taking successful work experience into account for parole decisions, etc.

[jmyeet]

"Voluntary" is a very blurry line, which is why I think the prisoners should be meaningfully paid.

The US prison system uses "commissary" to further extract wealth from prisoners and their families. We give prisoners substandard food and (usually) insufficient calories. How do they make that up? By paying out of pocket at commissary. And of course everything is overpriced.

Prison phone companies have historically gouged prisoners to keep in touch with family.

We even give female inmates insufficient sanitary products and, to get more, they need to see a doctor. But don't worry, we've financialized that too, as many states require a "co-pay" that might be $6 to see a doctor.

Now that doesn't sound like a lot. But remember if you have a prison job, which you pretty much have to in many prisons, you might be makihng 30 cents an hour.

So on top of forced incarceration, paid for by the state, we just have all these private profit opportunities that prisoners are coerced into.

[pessimizer]

> Minimum wage is supposed to cover sustainable food, shelter, clothing and other basic physical needs (leaving aside the question whether it really does, it is the intent).

You've simply made this up. This is what you think minimum wage should be, so this is what you've decided it was meant to be.

[worik]

> Minimum wage is supposed to cover sustainable food, shelter, clothing and other basic physical needs

* Many people locked up (in my country) are their families breadwinners * Many would if they could pay compensation, and victims would, if they could, receive it and improve their lives * Many leave prison with nothing. The ones not in the first clause often do not have families, nor friends left on the outside * Prisoners have, or can learn, valuable skills

Put it all together, please.

People (our fellow citizens, our comrades) should be sent to prison as punishment. Not for punishment. If they do not come out better than they went in (often a low bar) then we have failed.

We can do so much better

[musicale]

Good points. And as you note, the punishment is (or should be) being deprived of one's freedom, not being mistreated in prison.

It occurs to me that prisoners are usually exempt from child support payments (for example), but it might be better if they could actually contribute.

[smsm42]

If we had surefire ways to make people better than they went it, why deploy them in prisons? People pay thousands upon thousands for things like that voluntarily. The problem is, there's no such way. There's no way to "make" a person better. A person can become better because they strived to it and worked on it, and it can even happen in prison - it's as good place as any to hit the rock bottom and realize it's time to change - but if you think you can force it to happen, you are deeply deluded.

> People (our fellow citizens, our comrades)

Our fellow citizens, our comrades did the crime to earn prison. Retaliatory and precautionary aspect is as important as confinement itself. Of course, it should be moderated both by the size of the crime and by the culture, but it still exists.

[musicale]

> "Workers are being paid prisoner wages - outrage!"

As I understand it, in a number of US states workers are being paid prisoner wages.

However regular workers aren't locked up in a prison and don't have to eat prison food. On the down side, they might have to pay for their own health insurance.

[tzs]

I would guess it is being downvoted because while what it says about the 13th Amendment is correct it isn't really relevant to the question it was answering.

The question was whether or not US prisons use slavery. He answered the question of whether or not it would be legal for US prisons to use slavery. While is it legal, it is not mandated.

A proper answer would examine the labor requirements actually in use in US prisons, compare them to labor requirements in other first world country prisons (and yes, several other first world countries make prisoners work), define just what they mean by slavery, and then try to make the case that the differences between what the US does and what other first world countries with required prison labor do is enough to make it slavery in the US.

[bdangubic]

people that don’t have a fucking clue about slavery in their own country are the ones downvoting