[karencarits]

I like outliers too! I think the best opensource option, besides emacs, is logseq which is now developing a tag concept very close to Tana's supertag: https://test.logseq.com/

They are looking for a name for the concept, so suggestions are welcome!

[oliverchan2024]

From my perspective, they are all derivatives of org-mode.

[dotancohen]

I've often quipped that anyone who has ever tried implementing a personal knowledge or to-do app, had only done so because they haven't seen Org mode yet.

[karencarits]

I suspect many of these tools, including LogSeq, draw inspiration from Emacs and Org mode - the current version of LogSeq even supports org synatx!

But I've tried to dive into Org mode twice in the past five years, each time committing a few weeks to learning it. However, I eventually gave up and returned to Logseq. The steep learning curve was the biggest hurdle for me. Between understanding Lisp, figuring out and choosing between all the possible configurations and workflows, memorizing the keyboard shortcuts, and working through YouTube tutorials, the friction and mental load were just too high.

Logseq, on the other hand, provided most of the features [1] I needed while keeping the barrier to entry much lower - far, far lower than Emacs. But LogSeq is by no means perfect; I fear it will become bloated at some point (e.g., I have no interest in flashcards and spaced repetition learning)

[1] Outliner; data kept local; journal; simple task management; easy to insert quotes, code snippets, images; backlinks; possible to attach files

[dotancohen]

What did you find difficult to use about Org mode? I just jumped in and started using it, though I had already been familiar with markdown files previously.

[nickisnoble]

emacs shortcuts are unintuitive by modern reference points, it's hard to learn.

M-x === hit x and the ESC key (of all things) at the same time?

[adamgordonbell]

I used org-mode for a while, but I wasn't an Emacs user, and using it just for that was not a great fit. No one ever says that, but let me say it:

If you aren't an emacs person, it is not going to be a fit.

Workflowy is a pretty easy-to-use web version of the outline part, which requires zero setup and the other features of org-mode I never got into. Other things extend beyond this into the PKM space ( Roam, Tana, etc ).

Also, Zettelkasten is an interesting thing, but more as a curiosity, some process that worked for a specific researcher in nineteen dickey two, not as some process you should use.

For me, the big great outliner was workflow. Roam improved on that, and things improved for Roam.

[iLemming]

> Zettelkasten is an interesting thing, but more as a curiosity

Zettelkasten is just an idea, and a great one. I don't know what you think it is, but all these apps - Obsidian, Roamresearch, Logseq, Org-roam - are based on that idea.

[adamgordonbell]

I mean, it was a note taking system using a physical card catalog designed by Niklas Luhmann to help with his social science research.

The goal of my notes is so far from this that I found the ideas interesting but unrelated to how I use Roam, etc.

[oliverchan2024]

No tool can meet everyone’s needs. No matter what the tool is, as long as it has a user base, it proves its effectiveness—it’s just not suitable for you.

I was used many tools, include Workflowy and Roam. For me, org-mode & Emacs is the best tool of all, no tool can compare.

[iLemming]

Yup, I can concur. Having tried numerous different note-taking, project-management, PIM solutions over the years - Evernote, Workflowy, Notion, Todoist, rememberthemilk, Trello, etc., I have finally ended up with Org-mode and later Org-Roam. Nothing else even comes close to the versatility, control and liberating and empowering experience.

Sure, learning Emacs and Org-mode is quite some journey. But it's absolutely worth the time and effort.

I even try different new things from time to time - out of curiosity, and because so many times before, I have felt like being stuck in a bubble. And so far, I have not found anything much better than Org-mode.