[vel0city]

> because broadband providers offer information services and not telecommunications services

This is where I highly disagree with the opinions of this court decision. My ISP is absolutely providing me telecommunications services, not information service.

For practically all the "information" I receive, my ISP is not "generating, acquiring, storing, transforming, processing, retrieving, utilizing, or making available information via telecommunications". That maybe sometimes I might land on some webpage hosted by my ISP is inconsequential to the services I am paying for, that's not the service I'm paying for. In the end I'm paying for them to give me the ability to telecommunicate with a server hosted by someone else which then generates, processes, retrives, that information.

My ISP is not the information service which lets me post here. Hacker News is an information service acquiring, storing, transforming, processing, and retrieving the data I request. My ISP is only used for me to talk to the Hacker News webserver.

https://www.congress.gov/104/plaws/publ104/PLAW-104publ104.p...

I truly don't understand how anyone who can even vaguely understand how ISPs work and reads this law could say ISPs aren't telecommunications providers and are instead information service providers. Other than maybe big bags of cash that makes people's reading comprehension a little loose.

[granzymes]

>We now turn to the merits, which the parties have argued here in exemplary fashion. But the key flaw in the FCC’s arguments throughout is that the FCC elides the phrase “offering of a capability” as used in § 153(24). That phrase makes plain that a provider need not itself generate, process, retrieve, or otherwise manipulate information in order to provide an “information service” as defined in § 153(24). Instead, a provider need only offer the “capability” of manipulating information (in the ways recited in that subsection) to offer an “information service” under § 153(24). Even under the FCC’s narrower interpretation of “capability,” Broadband Internet Access Providers allow users, at minimum, to “retrieve information stored elsewhere. And we think it equally plain, for the reasons recited below, that Broadband Internet Service Providers offer at least that capability.

[tptacek]

As I said elsewhere on this thread, I read this as the court saying that something to the effect of "the underlying links that comprise the Internet backbone are probably telecommunications, but the provision of global Internet service on top of them constitutes information services". Which sounds crazy in 2024, but I'm not sure that's a crazy reading of the world circa 1996, which is the interpretation that controls here --- the Telecommunication Act appears to refer to the Internet primarily as something that runs on top of telecommunication links.

[wtallis]

> the Telecommunication Act appears to refer to the Internet primarily as something that runs on top of telecommunication links.

It most certainly does; the statutory definition is that there can be no information service without an underlying telecommunication service. So how could any court rule that ISPs who own the wires coming into my house are providing purely an information service and no part of their business can be regulated as a telecommunication service?

[tptacek]

I think you have this backwards, if I'm reading your thrust properly. The whole deal here is: if the Internet backbone is itself a telecommunications service, then maybe (but: probably not) the FCC can make up new rules about Internet service. If the Telecommunications Act of 1996 sees Internet service as something built on top of raw telecom circuits --- which I think it kind of clearly does? --- the FCC has no such power.

[wtallis]

> If the Telecommunications Act of 1996 sees Internet service as something built on top of raw telecom circuits --- which I think it kind of clearly does?

Does it? We have definitions for "information service" that clearly fit running a server, and "telecommunication service" defined in a way that clearly fits carrying data over wires, unmodified, and some potential gray area in between that might include looking up information to figure out how to correctly route other information.

You've repeatedly emphasized the "offering a capability" angle, and so does the court. On the subject of capabilities offered by ISPs, the court says:

> they offer a “feature[] permitting” consumers to stream videos stored on Netflix’s servers, [...] the “ability” to purchase gifts from information stored on Amazon’s servers, [...] the “capacity” to view posts stored on Facebook’s servers, [...] and the “power” to conduct a search using Google’s servers

But the court pretends that this piece of capability (feature/ability/capacity/power) being offered by ISPs (as opposed to Netflix, Amazon, et. al. who actually run the servers) is not exactly the telecommunications service the FCC seeks to regulate as a telecommunications service. The court appears to believe that merely being able to use the word "capability" to describe ISPs (while implicitly lumping together functions performed by ISPs with those performed by Netflix, et. al.) is sufficient to make ISPs not telecommunications services.

[tptacek]

Again, I would come back at you and say that you are talking about the Internet as if it was something markedly different from CompuServe, Prodigy, and AOL. Obviously, it is, but I don't think that distinction was legible to the authors of the 1996 act. Meanwhile: the courts, post-Chevron, are going to look at the text of the act in its 1996 context, without deferring to agencies about what the spirit of that act was.

This is a whole thread of people over and over and over again saying that the courts should read the 1996 Telecommunications Act in light of what telecommunications looks like in 2025 (or what they, 2025 practitioners, believe a 1996 practitioner should have thought --- as a former 1996 practitioner my response to that is: LOL). That's exactly what the post-Chevron courts are not going to do.

So far as I know, this distinction made it to SCOTUS just once (and: in the 21st century!), and when it did, the court said: the Internet is like Prodigy, CompuServe, and AOL.

[vel0city]

> Internet service as something built on top of raw telecom circuits

My service agreement with my ISP explicitly says it is a circuit.

And also the argument isn't if it's an Internet service or a telecommunications service, it's if it's an information service or telecommunications service. Quit throwing your own common parlance terminology here and use the language in the law and the courts please!

[tptacek]

The text of your service agreement has exactly zero to do with this dispute.

[wizzwizz4]

If the Telecommunications Act of 1996 saw the internet of 1996 as built on top of raw telecom circuits, that might have something to do with the fact that it was. Nowadays, it's the other way around: the telecoms system is built on top of raw internet circuits.

[vel0city]

The ISP doesn't offer me the capability to post this comment. Nowhere in my service agreement with them is hacker News mentioned.

[kevin_thibedeau]

ISPs used to have in house e-mail, Usenet, and FTP services. They realized they didn't need them to keep up the charade of being a telecom provider.

[autoexec]

They also provided shell accounts and webhosting. It had nothing to do with being a telecom provider. They stopped providing those services because third party services grew more popular and ISPs were happy to pocket the money they were spending to provide and support those services (our bills only went up even as ISPs offered less and less)

[vel0city]

Yeah and back in those times where you hopped on your phone line to dial to your ISPs modem to access the services they host I'd completely agree they were information services providers which happened to maybe offer this new fangled "web" thing you might have heard of on the news. People signed up for those ISPs because of the information services the ISPs provided.

Now people sign up for their ISPs because they offered the better price/throughput/stability math, or often they were the only one reasonably available. Practically nobody signs up because one provider has better email or better newsgroups.

[ab5tract]

What are you even saying? These were not signifiers of “telecom providers”. They were elements of competition amongst ISPs. In what world was Usenet and web hosting part of historical telecom offerings?

[mch82]

Your point seems spot on to me. We’ve fallen into the trap of differentiating legislation by implementation (technology) instead of job-to-be-done (societal OKRs). Email is just mail is just a way of exchanging letters. Digital packets and analog signals are just ways of sending data over a wire.