[flustercan]

> yet the problem was still bad.

My reading of the comment is that homelessness was not solved but ruthless enforcement made the issues related to homelessness less bad for everyone else who wasn't homeless.

System 1 (permissiveness): Bad for a small percentage of people and sorta bad for everyone else.

System 2 (strict enforcement): Really bad for a small percentage of people, neutral bad for everyone else.

System 3 (theoretical): Everything works pretty well for everyone.

Obviously system 3 is the best option, but it doesn't exist currently in any society anywhere on earth (maybe Japan?) System 2 seems to be the next best option to use while we keep trying to find a workable system 3.

[mmooss]

People have the exact same rights and freedom as you, whether or not they have housing or do things you like. That's what freedom is - doing things you don't like.

People love advertising their embrace of dictatorship and oppression, as if it's clever or smart. It's really a failure of responsibility and duty.

[flustercan]

All I want is for the laws on the books to be enforced. If a majority decides those laws are bad, they should be taken off the books.

Its currently against the law to litter, shoplift, vandalize, defecate in public, be visibly intoxicated in public, and store private property in public spaces. I think we should enforce those laws.

Should some of those laws be rewritten or abandoned? Maybe! But simply ignoring active laws is the definition of lawlessness and I don't want to live in a lawless community.

There is quite a lot of space in between "I think having laws is good, actually" and "embrace of dictatorship and oppression" but I guess this wouldn't be an internet board discussion without hyperbolic statements.

[bryanrasmussen]

In S.L.C Utah in the late 80s it was against the law for homeless people to ask for spare change.

One time I was walking with a friend, and a homeless guy asked me for some change and I gave it to him (most of the time I wouldn't because I wasn't exactly rich myself, but at just that time I felt like it), then I turned to cross the street before I had gotten 3 feet from giving the guy the spare change two cops swooped out from seemingly nowhere, accosted me and my friend, and started asking "what did he ask you? did you give him money", this was also quite aggressive the tone of voice of these cops.

Now I'm not the quickest guy on the uptake in these kinds of situations but luckily I was firing on all cylinders that day and so I said "no I didn't give me any money, he asked me what time it was leave me alone" loud enough that the homeless guy who was being detained by a third cop could hear me.

So after a bit more harassment they let us and the homeless guy go.

So first off a lot of laws are quite clearly unconstitutional, and it is an abrogation of freedom of speech that a homeless guy isn't allowed to ask me for money, no matter how uncomfortable it might make me.

My interpretation of rights is that any law which would actually itself be against the laws of the land does not need to be followed at all, but I have noticed that some people who hold your views believe that there are processes whereby illegitimate laws get nullified and until those processes are followed the law should be followed. Do you hold to this view?

Furthermore I would ask are there any laws that you would consider illegitimate? If so what are you doing personally to overturn those? I have encountered the viewpoint, generally in Americans, that the laws that are illegitimate should be followed until overturned and the duty of overturning those unjust laws fall only on the people who care about and are affected by those laws - is this also your viewpoint or do you think it falls on every citizen to oppose the unjust laws to their utmost?

Given the necessity to uphold the law that you believe in (meaning you believe in the necessity above other things) was I under an obligation to tell the police that the homeless guy asked me for money, and that I gave it to him?

[flustercan]

>I have noticed that some people who hold your views believe that there are processes whereby illegitimate laws get nullified and until those processes are followed the law should be followed. Do you hold to this view?

Yeah sorta, my point was more about enforcement than compliance. I don't necessarily think unjust laws should be followed but it certainly should not be up to each individual police officer to decide which laws gets enforced on which people.

If a law is unjust enough and enough people choose to disobey it and the legal system is forced to get involved constantly then I believe we would see a lot more change in the law than with our current system of writing laws then letting cops selectively enforce them.

>Furthermore I would ask are there any laws that you would consider illegitimate? If so what are you doing personally to overturn those?

Yes, just about any restriction on abortion. What am I doing? Not much other than voting, occasionally donating money, and choosing to never live in a state that writes those laws. Would what I do change if there were, say, a national abortion ban? Probably, but I certainly won't count on the police joining in on whatever form of protest I see fit.

I don't think the laws around shoplifting, public intoxication, vandalism, etc. are bad and I am doing nothing to overturn them.

> Given the necessity to uphold the law that you believe in (meaning you believe in the necessity above other things) was I under an obligation to tell the police that the homeless guy asked me for money, and that I gave it to him?

No, but the cops who saw you do it were obliged to follow whatever procedure was written into the law. Does SLC still have this law? Having been involved in the enforcement of this law, were you more aware that the law existed and you wanted it changed?

The laws are written democratically, then enforced dictatorially by the whim of a few individuals with a gun. I think this is bad.

[mmooss]

> All I want is for the laws on the books to be enforced.

That's an old rationalization of oppression. The reality is that we don't want all the laws enforced on themselves or their friends, and the laws are never enforced in toto on anyone, except the politically vulnerable.

[xcrunner529]

We can’t camp in parks and monopolize them for ourselves, nor should the homeless.

[bryanrasmussen]

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.

[mmooss]

You are free to beg in the halls and offices of Congress, however, if you ask for at least $10 million.

[xcrunner529]

I guess the poor should be allowed to kill too while we’re at it.

[metalman]

The constituion is bieng ignored,over written, its basic ideals ridiculed, and is unfortunatly the source of ALL LAW.

Not one of the "new laws" bieng enforced or ignored is therfor valid.

Questions of legitamcy and precident are ridiculous.

Enforcing the first page of the constitution, fixes everything.

The other possibility, is decaring a total government shutdown, martial law, and a mandatory partisipation is drafting a new constitution, with a maximum of 10 pages.

Constitution, then enforcement procedure, but no more "laws", and laws, and laws, and laws, thinking of pi here, infinitly non repeating but with a sense of horror, rather than wonder

[cr125rider]

Yes but many of the things that homeless people do is illegal in the eyes of the law, they just look the other way.

[mmooss]

They look the other way for lots of people doing lots of things. Let's start enforcing laws at the top, where the actions are far more consequential, rather than on the vulnerable people at the bottom.

[flustercan]

Sounds like we agree, enforce all the laws.

[mmooss]

That would be very oppressive and expensive, and I doubt you really mean it beyond theoretically.

[throwaway_5633]

I live in the Netherlands and I’d say we mostly have a system 3, there is little problematic homelessness, housing is often available to those not wanting to live on the street, shelters ban anyone intoxicated. Drug rehabilitation is available to the homelessness (including free alternative drug prescriptions). Public intoxication is policed. If I see someone living in a tent it’s exceptional enough to point it out to a friend.

[swexbe]

Japan absolutely has a homelessness problem. Not anywhere near as bad as California’s. In my experience they mostly keep themselves out of the way as opposed to western homeless. Not sure if this is due to stricter enforcement or cultural practices.

[nobodyandproud]

I don’t like how you make System 1 to be somehow the lesser of two evils.

System 1/2 are both extremely awful, but in different ways.

System 3 would be highly affordable and available housing, coupled with out-of-sight permissiveness but strict enforcement once certain indicative lines are crossed.

[xcrunner529]

An LA school literally had to put up fencing to hide the homeless next door from being sexual deviants and exposing themselves to children.

[nobodyandproud]

So then, aren’t you essentially agreeing with me? That permissiveness isn’t better?

[xcrunner529]

Yep