[akoboldfrying]

> I don't believe (and I've never seen any convincing evidence) that we could EVER develop more human and environmentally safe technology.

Come on now. Renewable energy is gaining on fossil fuels around the world. The air in London used to be thick with smog, and now it's not. Acid rain is a thing of the past. The ozone hole is shrinking.

Fire and the wheel are technology; are you against them too?

[vouaobrasil]

> Come on now. Renewable energy is gaining on fossil fuels around the world.

What matters to me is CO2. When we can drop that below 400, then I will be impressed. As for now, I'm waiting to see if this is not just a case of Jevon's paradox.

> Fire and the wheel are technology; are you against them too?

No, those are local technologies that anyone can make with some basic knowledge. I am not against primitive technologies. We will always use them. What I am saying is that we should be like the Amish: examine individual technologies for their long-term consequences, and not develop those. And, we should regress many as well. The discussion of which and how would be lengthy but we should have it (as a society).

[akoboldfrying]

I think we agree that technology is not inherently a force for good. But I take your original claim to be that it is exclusively a force for (environmental) evil, which I think is demonstrably untrue. Although you have now added an exception for "primitive" forms, it's not clear to me (a) that these are any better for the environment than "advanced" forms (fire can be pretty bad for the environment) or (b) where the line between "primitive" and "advanced" is in any case.

[_yb2s]

A lot of people I think mistakenly assume technology, capitalism, etc. are fundamentally evil because they’ve been used to do awful things… but they are just amoral powerful tools. One needs to have a sense of ethics, quality, and responsibility to make good decisions in their use. Deeper basic scientific knowledge also allows for more accurate predictions of the consequences and risks- enabling more responsible actions.

[vouaobrasil]

I don't thin it is good or evil but neither do I subscribe to the instrumentalist view that it is a tool. It does grow with a deterministic force that is partly beyond human control. (Various mechanisms make it so in a large populace). So, I don't agree that it's "just a tool" either.

[_yb2s]

I really like the Amish approach to technology, but don't think most people are aware of the nuance: they aren't against technology, but critically evaluate the net benefit, and adopt it if it seems like a benefit to them, not just because they can. Plenty of Amish use modern technology when they feel it is appropriate- a lot of them are running businesses that require computers, power tools, and high speed travel to make a living - I see them on Amtrak frequently.

However, I do wonder if they are still able to make coherent decisions about the net benefits of various technologies, without a deep level of technical and scientific training nowadays. Living up against a world of people not making the same choices as them would present a lot of new challenges- for example, if a chemical factory is placed nearby... are they learning how to use mass spec to see if they are being poisoned? Or to read scientific literature to see what the likely risks and impacts of that poisoning is? Sure they could hire external experts, but can they trust people that don't share their views and values to navigate those issues as they would?

Taking personal responsibility for if a technology is appropriate to use or not may require an even deeper level of technical and scientific knowledge than the usual approach of not being critical of technology.

[vouaobrasil]

I know that the Amish aren't against technology, but they are against most advanced forms. When it comes to power tools, they also engineer specific requirements so that the electricity they use can't be used for anything else. And when it comes to computers, a lot of them contract out the work so they don't have to be exposed to them.

When it comes to making decisions, I am pretty sure no one in modern society makes any choices when it comes to the net benefits, only the short-term gains. That's regardless of how much technical training they have. And the net benefits are mainly about the use, not how the thing works, so people could really indeed make such decisions if there were a governing body to do so.

[api]

I’ve always thought that super advanced aliens would be like this.

Sure they can fold space-time and have quantum computers the size of dust particles, but they also use traditional tools from their ancient history when appropriate or when it serves a role in their culture. They also don’t do absolutely everything they know how to do, deciding some things are harmful or useless.

You see this sometimes in sci-fi, e.g. Star Trek.

It’d probably be a sign of being advanced far beyond the hype phase, even having gone through many hype - disillusionment - enlightenment phases. They would be far post the phase where things look like cyberpunk, but you’d probably see phases like that in their history.