[jimkleiber]

I remember reading a joke once...

What's the hardest European language to learn?

Dutch.

Why?

Because every time you speak to them in Dutch they respond to you in English.

It seems this is a way around that :-D

(I don't actually think it's the hardest language but have found that yes, many Dutch speak English very well)

[jjallen]

I am in Amsterdam right now and yes, I have yet to encounter a Dutch person that doesn’t speak very fluent English.

[Freak_NL]

As a Dutchman from outside of Amsterdam (you know, most of us):

Hah!

It's not even that they won't speak Dutch, often they can't! Sometimes you'll be hard-pressed to find someone capable of speaking Dutch in Amsterdam in some shops and restaurants. I've had people look sheepish/annoyed for presuming to use and expect Dutch in my own country.

[thijsvandien]

Exactly that. You'll have a harder time not speaking English than not speaking Dutch.

[lucb1e]

It's not the norm anywhere outside of Amsterdam I'd say, but indeed, we had a server/waiter(?) in a Greek restaurant in Limburg yesterday who spoke German but not Dutch (who looked like they might be from Greece so I doubt they were simply from Germany). Especially since the pandemic I've been noticing this more. I like the culture mingling, all the better that the Limburgians see foreigners aren't scary and evil, but I'm curious if it's a trend or if I'm just randomly noticing it more

[lucb1e]

Try a less touristy areas though, or people you don't normally interact with much (who will, conversely, also not have much experience interacting with non-Dutch people). My grandma couldn't say more than yes or no and understand not much more

Working an IT job in a company of ~30 employees, someone joined who didn't speak Dutch. They would always excuse themselves and have lunch in their office¹ because it was very obvious that half the people just didn't really interact with the previously lively conversation anymore and were just biding their time to get back to work. Those who did speak, it worked but it's not as jovial as before. Sure, these people can all hold a presentation about their field of work, or order a sandwich with the correct words in England, but a spontaneous conversation about something random? It's a different set of vocabulary that you need every day, and far from everyone has that

¹ yes, we made clear they shouldn't do that and they should feel invited and part of the team. Many people did interact. And many of us made sure they were, at least, not having lunch alone in their office. Situation unfortunately remained as it was until I left

[melvinmelih]

I speak Dutch fluently (born and raised) and even I have a hard time to speak Dutch with Dutch people. If you don't fit the profile (blond hair/blue eyes) they automatically assume you're a foreigner.

[contravariant]

Oh yeah we only allow people to speak poor english in very public functions, like the head of state or the secretary general of NATO.

It helps make the rest of us look good.

[Muromec]

I don't have an active memory of hearing either of them speaking poor English. Can't be true.

[mi_lk]

Clearly a dig at Mark Rutte...

[usrnm]

It is a rather big problem, yes. You can absolutely get by without speaking any Dutch, I know people who have spent 10+ years in the country with just very basic knowledge of the language. Absolutely kills the motivation for a lot of people.

[wdb]

You can't even order food or drinks in Dutch anymore in a lot of places in Amsterdam. It's a bit of a bummer when you are back in your home country and can't even speak your mother tongue

[andrepd]

Also Dutch is, let's put it this way, not the prettiest language, nor the most useful. I'm sure that also kills plenty of motivation.

[com]

I’d disagree, on the pretty front.

As I’ve learned it, I found it very charming and often surprisingly sweet - as an example idiomatic terms for urination and defecation are very funny: plassen (making a large pond) and klaaivormen (forming clay) - add to that a rather easy to rhyme language with a tendency towards charming and heartfelt emotional range, and the end result is quite nice.

Add lots of domestic and Caribbean regional variation in the home countries, close sister languages: Vlaams (certainly in its higher form a very different register of the language than the Hollands standard form), Afrikaans and West-Frisk, Papiamento etc and you’ve got a very cosy (gezellig!) and dynamic inter-language community!

The aggressive simplification of standard Dutch initially offended my tastes, but later I’ve found that particular discipline improved my English by accident and I’m now a fan of the sparse elegance and surprising nuance of that style …

[wdb]

I think you mean 'kleien' instead of 'klaaivormen'?

[com]

I’ve heard “kleivormen” in Hoorn, “klei maken” (a little more gross - no surprise given their famous export, disease swearing, I suppose) in Den Haag, and “kleien” below the great rivers.

Edit: spelling, never ran into the NL word for clay in writing as an adult language learner not into geophysics, civil engineering or pottery

[lucb1e]

What makes a language pretty? I'm not sure I ever saw/heard one that was pretty beyond what I'd say is in the eye/ear of the beholder

But agreed on it being pretty useless outside of a few small regions / couple million speakers. I've been saying we should apply winning team joining and get to something more internationally useful, as everyone here seems to already agree we are small and that trade and cooperation has brought the current prosperity. The area I'm from, though, people clutch to local dialects as cultural heritage that should be continued to be spoken... it doesn't even have a writing system... whatever, I don't mind so long as people are okay with a useful language alongside