[dannymcgee]

Created an account just to say: I am a 10-year JavaScript veteran who knows the ecosystem at least as well as any sane person could possibly be expected to, and this is 100% correct. When I tell people that JS build tooling is the second-worst headache to C/C++ build tooling, they laugh, but stick a toe outside the happy path of `npm create <some-framework-project> && npm start` and you will know what pain feels like.

I did get some similar vibes trying to work with Gradle and Maven for a project a while back, but I don't really live in that world so it's hard to say whether my experience was typical or just symptomatic of my inexperience.

[smarkov]

And it'll continue to get worse because JS devs love coming up with their own abstractions over everything and piling complexity. You don't write JS, you write TS. You don't write HTML, you write JSX. You don't write CSS, you write Tailwind. And of course, React has its own compiler as of recently. Now you have to figure out in what order to run these parsers, bundle everything together including your hundreds of dependencies, minimize, obfuscate, tree shake, and whatever else fairy dust magic you want to sprinkle on top. Meanwhile, the default build tool of choice changes about once every 2 years, and now you also have a choice of runtime - node vs bun vs deno. Can't wait to see what the next revolutionary idea would be to contribute to this madness.

[dannymcgee]

You forgot to mention the 3 or 4 different TypeScript compilers!

I do have to admit at least some of the pain is self-inflicted on my part. I _want_ those nice abstractions, so I will write a damn Rollup or Babel plugin if it means I can use Sass stylesheets in my TypeScript+JSX components that compile to vanilla Custom Elements (so I don't have to depend on a huge framework runtime).

But as nice as the Babel/Rollup/Vite plugin APIs are, when you start doing stuff like that you then have to deal with all the deep-in-the-weeds bullshit that comes with it, like the fact that Webpack and Rollup and Node.js all have subtly different (and mostly poorly documented) module resolution rules and that they all differ wildly from the official ES-module spec that the standards committee finally shipped like 20 years too late, so trying to get your unit-testing framework and your bundle toolchain and your browser to all agree about how to digest the mess you've made becomes this giant clusterfucktastrophe that makes you question every life decision and formative event that led you to the moment you thought this might be a neat idea.

But yeah just like build a React app or whatever and you'll probably be fine.

[claytongulick]

There are those of us out there that have a beautiful experience with JavaScript. Vanilla JS, web components, a lightweight rendering library like lit-html, class props as reactive state...

NodeJS + express + vanilla web components is the most graceful and productive stack I've ever used in 30+ years of development.

[singhrac]

Good luck trying to use these tools with anything other than the blessed path of node on the backend.

The JS ecosystem absolutely has the problem of "too many compilers", and of course as I'm typing this there's someone out there writing a "one compiler to unify them all".