[jeffreygoesto]

Maybe it is a valid position to ask where the money for "get rich" comes from and if society would be different if it wasn't all about that money trickling upwards? Have you been to schools or nursing homes lately, having to let dear relatives go there?

[cbmuser]

Have been to any actual socialist country? Have experienced what scarcity means and what it feels like to be locked into your own country without a real chance of leaving until you reach retirement age?

[Ladsko]

The point is to meet somewhere in the middle and find compromises that prohibit uncontrolled growth of wealth and power by single individuals without crippling the economy too much. It does not have to be one extreme or the other.

[ahartmetz]

I have yet to see someone advocating for actual socialism. There is a huge difference between social democracy and socialism, but it's a popular argumentation technique in the US to pretend that they are the same.

[mytailorisrich]

There are socialist parties in every European countries, and some of them get a lot of votes.

In Germany, Die Linke is anti-capitalist and advocates "actual socialism" and current has 39 MPs in the Bundestag.

In France, LFI (France Unbowed) is anti-capitalist and advocates "actual socialism" and currently has 71 MPs in the French parliament (second largest party by number of MPs...). There are also several smaller parties that are more "hardcore", including the historic French Communist Party that still has 8 MPs and 14 Senators...

Now I do agree that social democracy is not socialism, but again, plenty of socialists in Europe, too.

On a related note, when people claim that they are "anti-capitalist" (which seems to be more popular than claiming to be socialist) it does not really leave many alternatives, just semantic flavours of socialism.

[CrLf]

Perhaps it's important to point out that socialism != communism.

I think this is something the US really doesn't understand about Europe.

Socialism is about putting people first and making sure no one is left behind by society, which is the opposite of communism (and capitalism).

In fact, US capitalism is much closer to communism regarding societal outcomes (social injustice, power concentration) than European socialism. It is very much possible to be anti-capitalist and anti-communist at the same time .

[mytailorisrich]

> Socialism is about putting people first and making sure no one is left behind by society

No, that's not what socialism is but I won't develop here because the definition is so available and well-known.

[lispm]

The SPD in Germany claims the following:

https://www.spd.de/programm/grundsatzprogramm

---

Demokratischer Sozialismus

Unsere Geschichte ist geprägt von der Idee des demokratischen Sozialismus, einer Gesellschaft der Freien und Gleichen, in der unsere Grundwerte verwirklicht sind. Sie verlangt eine Ordnung von Wirtschaft, Staat und Gesellschaft, in der die bürgerlichen, politischen, sozialen und wirtschaftlichen Grundrechte für alle Menschen garantiert sind, alle Menschen ein Leben ohne Ausbeutung, Unterdrückung und Gewalt, also in sozialer und menschlicher Sicherheit führen können.

Das Ende des Staatssozialismus sowjetischer Prägung hat die Idee des demokratischen Sozialismus nicht widerlegt, sondern die Orientierung der Sozialdemokratie an Grundwerten eindrucksvoll bestätigt. Der demokratische Sozialismus bleibt für uns die Vision einer freien, gerechten und solidarischen Gesellschaft, deren Verwirklichung für uns einedauernde Aufgabe ist. Das Prinzip unseres Handelns ist die soziale Demokratie.

---

[CrLf]

You may want to look into the ideologies of European political parties that have "socialist" in their names, instead of relying on definitions from the Soviet revolution.

Socialism in Europe is social democracy. The only difference between "socialist" and "social democratic" parties in Europe is how fractionally close to the right or left side of the center line they are.

[davrosthedalek]

> Socialism is about putting people first and making sure no one is left behind by society, which is the opposite of communism (and capitalism).

The problem with that sentence is that you can say the same sentence with socialism/communism/capitalism in any order and you would find people who would sign it. And to some degree, maybe all would be right.

[_19qg]

For the US reader:

> 39 MPs in the Bundestag

Out of currently 733 MPs with a parliament with "proportional representation", where the number of seats is proportional to the number of votes (Germany-wide, not local). Die Linke thus has 5.3% seats in the Bundestag. Thus this is not "a lot of votes" in relation to the voting population.

> "anti-capitalist" (which seems to be more popular than claiming to be socialist)

Anti-capitalism is found in right-wing parties, too. Like the German AFD.

[davrosthedalek]

I don't think this gives an accurate picture. Even a 5% party can have an outsized influence on the politics. And it's not clear what the next election will bring.

> Anti-capitalism is found in right-wing parties, too. Like the German AFD. Well, many/most of their proponents now seem to be fans of an older party which had national socialism in the name, so no surprise.

In reality, the market rules and social net in most of Europe and US are not /that/ different. Both allow private ownership of production, both have market economy.

Yes, the US says it's a free market, but it isn't. It's maybe free-er. Germany has a "social market economy", which mostly means that some (insurance) costs are lifted from the incur-er and distributed socially. Both have a social security equivalent, with Germany better coverage for unemployment, and US better retirement, AFAICT.

[lispm]

> Even a 5% party can have an outsized influence on the politics

Die Linke does not have an "outsized influence". It's also shrinking.

It may seem to have "outsized influence" for someone from the US or the UK, with their different voting system, which practically creates a two-party system. In a proportional representation system smaller parties have influence, too - for example by being a coalition member.

Die Linke has not been a member of a coalition in Germany, so far, and it is not expected that this will change.

> which mostly means that some (insurance) costs are lifted from the incur-er and distributed socially

That's a very narrow view. Try to get a German-style workers council at an US company. Good luck!

[jeffreygoesto]

I spent enough parts of my youth in one, to know, yes. I know how you adapt to the inevitable.

[andrepd]

Almost nobody except fringe groups means "Marxism-Leninism" when they say "socialism". I'm sure you understand this.

[rsynnott]

There is a significant middle-ground between Libertarian Utopia/Dystopia (delete as appropriate) and North Korea, you realise?