[kqgnkqgn]

Seem like sensible changes, though more is still needed. Requiring H1B holders to leave the country to renew paperwork is an insane anachronism. The per-country caps also seem like a throwback to the early 1900's era immigration exclusion policies.

Re: the concerns over "immigrants taking our jobs!". As a native-born American working in a large tech company today - the threat is very clearly not from H1B's and other visas. The threat to American tech jobs is when US tech companies choose to build out offices in lower cost of living countries (and I'm very much including Europe in that, I think that's even a bigger problem).

It's much much better for America if tech companies hire workers in the US, regardless of whether they are citizens. Americans are eligible for those jobs, and that money stays within our economy. Versus employing workers elsewhere, where American's can't easily be hired, and those resources leave the US.

If we want to keep opportunities here - that's the issue we should be focus on fixing. What regulatory steps could we advocate for that would address this risk? Immigration is the wrong problem, and the focus on that in certain populist circles really demonstrates they are rather out of touch from what's actually happening in the industries that are driving the US economy today.

[remarkEon]

>It's much much better for America if tech companies hire workers in the US, regardless of whether they are citizens. Americans are eligible for those jobs, and that money stays within our economy. Versus employing workers elsewhere, where American's can't easily be hired, and those resources leave the US.

I want to pick on this point, because it's the general refrain about this topic. If there is some thing that American workers can't do in an in-demand field, and the government sets up a system to allow non-citizens to do those jobs, most people will say that this "helps" America. But does it? If the education pipeline is inadequately preparing Americans for being competitive in this in-demand field then perhaps that is the problem that should be addressed. Right now it feels like we have a (highly suspect) "labor shortage" that is addressed via immigration, which doesn't send a signal back to the educational/training infrastructure that they're doing something wrong.

[hash872]

The US is only 4% of the world's population, so there's an enormous number of extremely smart people who live outside its present borders. I don't think anyone believes that even the world's greatest educational system can bring all of its students up to an extremely high level of general intelligence. We should be letting very smart people born outside the US emigrate here, which is a win-win for everyone involved

[remarkEon]

Sure. But the government of the United States is, allegedly, there for the benefit of its citizens. I'm not really following where this "should" comes from. "Should" in what volume? "Should" over what time frame?

[ThrowawayR2]

If you don't think that having Linus Torvalds as a US citizen tremendously benefits the US public as a whole, enough to offset any imagined downsides of a great many merely average immigrating tech workers, there's nothing more to be said. And that's just him alone but he is merely one example of many other famous examples.

[Terr_]

If you're gonna name famous people, there's already an O-1 visa program for that.

https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary...

[plynium]

O-1 is a nonimmigrant visa. You can't receive green card and further citizenship with O-1.

[remarkEon]

I missed this comment, but what does Linus' citizenship status have to do with this? Surely you don't think that conferring a US Passport on Linus made him who he is.

Not understanding what point you are making. Is it that any displacement of US citizens' employment via immigration of foreign tech workers is somehow neutered because Linus is really good at writing code and has a US Passport? Anyway, I thought he became a US citizen somewhat recently, well after the bulk of development of Linux. Wikipedia says 2010.

[throwaway48476]

Linus works from home, he could do that from anywhere.

[defrost]

Indeed.

The benefit to the US if he is a citizen is that then his taxes flow to the US and if he's resident his local spending flows to the US economy and that of any geo immediate coworkers there for the face time.

[tester756]

What would it give US if they had Linus as an citizen?

[hash872]

Letting in a lot of smart people benefits the citizens of the United States, that's why I said it's a win-win. Do you think we'd be better off if we excluded Musk to hire a native-born American instead in our aerospace industry?

Just going back in time, do you think the US would be better off if we'd excluded Irish immigrants? Italians? Germans? If blocking immigration somehow benefits native-born citizens, you'd logically have to think our population should have stayed the same as it was when we broke away from Britain. We'd be about the size of say Colombia, maybe with a bit higher GPD

[remarkEon]

The current immigration regime is still relatively new, it is not as if it has existed for the entirety of the existence of the United States. It's an artifact of the late 20th century, and only just now accelerated in the early 21st. That's barely a single generation. So, no, I don't take it as a given that essentially limitless immigration - even if loosely constrained on "high skill" - is somehow axiomatically good for the United States.

[hash872]

I'm a little confused. It's possible to be very pedantic and say that the current immigration law only dates back to the 60s, but the population of the United States is 97.9% not from this continent. There was a wave of British, Spanish, and French immigration in the 17th & 18th centuries, followed by Germans, Italians, and Irish in the 19th & 20th. In the 19th century the legal regime about immigration was literally 'open borders', there were hardly any legal controls at all. The vast vast majority of us are the descendants of immigrants (my apologies if you personally are 100% Native American, didn't mean to lump you in)

[cuteboy19]

if anything the previous regime was even more unconstrained. add to that generous blanket amnesty etc and today seems more gated than ever

[vkou]

> Do you think we'd be better off if we excluded Musk to hire a native-born American instead in our aerospace industry?

Given where he ended up, probably.

Cheap rockets are nice, but speed-running a complete destruction of public trust, culture, and of any illusion that the country is one with rule of law for the benefit of a few insecure billionaire narcissists is a juice that wasn't worth the squeeze.

[mlindner]

Elon Musk is in fact incredibly popular, even if he is highly polarizing. His poll numbers are similar to Trumps and Trump won the national election.

[gorbachev]

Allegedly...by and large the US Government operates, however, for the benefit of corporations and rich folk (with some exceptions). If they want to hire foreign labor, the US Government is going to make it happen.

[throwaway48476]

A national government functions as a labor union on a national scale.

[christina97]

I mean the US thinks of its place in the world as much more than the domestic insular affairs of its citizens. If you look at it from that angle it’s obvious that vacuuming up smart people and becoming “more powerful” intellectually is what the US clearly wants.

[sebastianz]

> which is a win-win for everyone involved

Well... not for everyone involved. It's definitely a "lose" for the countries they are leaving from, that educated them.

[titanomachy]

The median American is not smart enough to do complex software engineering, just like they're not smart enough to be a doctor or college professor. All cognitively demanding jobs compete for the same (probably single-digit) percent of the workforce. Better education could certainly prepare more people to do these jobs, but it's not a given that there are enough smart people in the domestic workforce to do all the cognitively-demanding jobs.

If thousands of the smartest people from the rest of the world want to move to the US and fill these gaps, doesn't that make America better off overall?

[kbolino]

This is just brain-draining the rest of the world for the short-term boosting of some myopic statistics. This isn't going to improve the employability of median-intelligence people, and in the long run, it's going to exacerbate the same problem, but now globally.

[Cumpiler69]

>The median American is not smart enough to do complex software engineering

How many jobs require complex SW engineering rather than basic SW engineering?

[remarkEon]

>The median American is not smart enough to do complex software engineering,

This point, assuming for a moment that it's actually true, would matter if "complex software engineering" was all that this was being used for. Complex for whom?

[upbeat_general]

I think a lot of these comments don’t properly capture the benefit. The more skilled workers, the more startups/companies, not to mention smarter people.

But the effect is bigger than that, by allowing skilled immigration, it makes US universities and tech companies the best in the world, at the very least seen as such, which has tremendous larger effects.

It’s not a coincidence that we have the largest tech industry, and it’s not because we magically have smarter people.

[tiznow]

Try repeating this to a developer out of work right now.

[chabons]

I don't have statistics, but given the student visa -> H-1B pipeline changes, it would seem there are a number of H-1B holders who are educated in US colleges (either at the undergrad or graduate level). This indicates that the problem is not entirely a training gap.

[hedora]

Honestly, the US needs to (and used to) do both. We should have a world-class public education system, and we should aggressively get the best and the brightest people to move here.

It seems unlikely we’ll do either of those things moving forward. At least China’s investing in green tech, I guess.

[BJones12]

> The per-country caps also seem like a throwback to the early 1900's era immigration exclusion policies.

Canada does not have that and it is going very poorly. Lots of people are calling for the implementation of the same policy.

[aylmao]

How is not having a per-country cap going poorly in Canada?

[BJones12]

Because there are an overwhelming number of immigrants from the same state (or two) in India.

[aylmao]

Is this bad due to the hypothetical loss of diversity? ie, it'd be better if there were a mix of Indian, Chinese, Brazilian, Mexican, etc immigrants, vs only immigrants from a single state in India?

[forgotoldacc]

What happens in a lot of cases like this is nepotism and lack of need, or even desire, to assimilate to the host country. Things like this are always dismissed the first 20 years, but it always leads to racial and ethnic tensions as time passes. Saying "ummm, like, don't be racist" has never worked.

But when immigrants all come from one small region, they tend to only hire people they know or are vetted by someone they know, they only rent properties to people they know or are vetted by people they know, they start to see the locals of the country they're living in as below them, and it just keeps spiraling out of control.

And notice that I specified no race. I specified no country. I specified no religion or ethnic background. It's simply a universal thing that happens in every country. It always leads to far right swings when not quickly addressed. If what I've said in any way comes across as "racist", that's due to the reader inserting their own racial biases and thus their own racism into this statement, because I'm not in any way implying this is confined to one group. It's something that's been a problem for millennia and governments keep making the same mistakes.

[throwawaythekey]

> But when immigrants all come from one small region, they tend to only hire people they know or are vetted by someone they know, they only rent properties to people they know or are vetted by people they know, they start to see the locals of the country they're living in as below them, and it just keeps spiraling out of control.

This happens with some races more than others. When you import Indians you are importing caste thinking.

[fourside]

It’d be interesting to understand why immigrants to Canada are disproportionately coming from a small number of locations. Unless there’s a good reason behind it I think it’s reasonable to find a better balance.

[riskable]

The reason why there's so many Indians is because THERE'S SO MANY INDIANS! You don't need to be a rocket surgeon to figure that one out =)

The "problem" with having that many Indians isn't that they're not adapting to Canadian culture it's that they're bringing along some of the bad things from India like the caste system. It's not as bad as many other cultural problems because it's strictly Indians causing problems for other Indians but it's still a problem.

[focom]

Have you heard of Brampton?

[aylmao]

Nope, what's that

[AlexandrB]

Brampton is a suburb of Toronto with a large Indian immigrant population. This is leading to tensions within Brampton as different Indian political factions attempt to influence Indian politics from Canada[1][2][3].

[1] https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/india/canada-khalistan-re...

[2] https://www.thecanadianpressnews.ca/national/party-leaders-c...

[3] https://tnc.news/2024/11/04/arrests-brampton-surrey-khalista...

[WorkerBee28474]

Canada's center of bad driving, fraud, and temporary worker abuse.

[i18nsoftware]

How would have the same policy had any effect in Canada? Country caps in the US don't change anything about who can enter the country, they only affect who gets permanent residency.

[maeil]

> Re: the concerns over "immigrants taking our jobs!". As a native-born American working in a large tech company today - the threat is very clearly not from H1B's and other visas. The threat to American tech jobs is when US tech companies choose to build out offices in lower cost of living countries (and I'm very much including Europe in that, I think that's even a bigger problem).

> It's much much better for America if tech companies hire workers in the US, regardless of whether they are citizens. Americans are eligible for those jobs, and that money stays within our economy. Versus employing workers elsewhere, where American's can't easily be hired, and those resources leave the US.

Makes me wonder how many people gladly support this while at the same time clamoring against the EU's DMA and other regulations and fines it imposes on SV companies.

What you're saying is of course absolutely true! I like how plainly you've stated it, because the directness makes clear to people just how awful of a deal it is for the EU and other countries where US tech companies make enormous profits without hiring any significant number of locals.

I've lived in both the EU which suffers from the above, as well as a place where protectionism and barriers helped strongly restrain US tech and "artificially" give opportunity to local players. The latter has worked out so much better for every party involved except US tech.

[rbanffy]

> It's much much better for America if tech companies hire workers in the US

I used the same argument in Brazil to support a strong free software preference in all government functions. Support from voters in Redmond wouldn’t get anyone re-elected in Brazil.

[fmeyer]

Then we got RedHat using the same strategy to sell support for the government :D

[rbanffy]

They had a huge office in São Paulo back then. For all I know, it's bigger now. A good friend of mine spent so much time in airplanes between São Paulo and Brasilia that his skin was dry as a turtle's.

[akira2501]

> to leave the country to renew paperwork is an insane anachronism.

I always took it as a means of proving they still could return somewhere if necessary. Which is a reasonable thing to assure on a visa.

[kelnos]

That's pointless. They need to prove they have somewhere to return to while regretting their visa that lets them... not return there? Dumb.

Ultimately it just wasted time and money, and causes lots of stress, for no useful purpose.

[akira2501]

It's a visa. The whole point is that it's not permanent and you are ultimately expected to return home permanently. You may also be asked to leave at any time. It's reasonable for the host nation to want to ensure that outcome is still available and that someone hasn't actually fully emigrated here with no options for return.

Ultimately it's known to anyone who applies for a visa that this will be the requirement, and so, if they don't want the economic opportunity of working in the US, they're free to avoid the stress and just stay in their home nation.

[bdangubic]

> It's a visa. The whole point is that it's not permanent and you are ultimately expected to return home permanently

probably do not have to tell you this but not all visas are created equal... this one is particular is a dual-intent visa so what you are saying applies to SOME visas, just not this one :)

[cyberax]

> The whole point is that it's not permanent and you are ultimately expected to return home permanently.

No. H1b is a "dual intent" visa. It's expected that you will file for a permanent residence while on this visa.

[bubblethink]

No, this was post 9/11. It has nothing to do with immigration policy. The collective jerking after 9/11 led to many bad policies, including this one. Biden half assedly tried to go back to the pre 9/11 state of "stateside renewal" but it went nowhere.

[a13n]

To some extent this is what Section 174 is about.

If you hire US-based engineers working on R&D (most software engineers) then you amortize their pay over 5 years. Foreign-based engineers working on R&D get amortized over 15 years.

You get to expense 3x as much for domestic engineers compared to foreign engineers. This means you need to pay more taxes upfront for having a foreign R&D team, which is bad for cashflow. Your company could be losing money (unprofitable) but still owe corp income taxes because of Section 174.

If the gov charged "tariffs" on foreign labor or services provided, especially for certain countries that labor is typically outsourced to, or certain types of labor/services (e.g. support, engineering, etc), that'd probably be an effective way to discourage offshoring.

[cute_boi]

The per-country caps is very important. Otherwise, you will see flood of same people which makes everything biased.

[xtreme]

It's a policy based on unsound reasoning. Why is India treated as a monolith when it is more diverse than the EU in terms of linguistic and cultural diversity? If tomorrow India magically broke off into 30 separate states, all the same people who have been waiting for decades would be immediately eligible for green cards. How does it make any sense?

[cute_boi]

You might be right, but if u see the real situation Indian manager prefers Indian worker mostly. And it is mostly 2-3 states, not every states.

[bdangubic]

H1B program is also diversity program, much like green card lottery…

[int_19h]

Diversity based on country of origin doesn't make much sense, though.

[bdangubic]

That is exactly what diversity is when it comes to immigration, the freaking yearly green card lottery has diversity in the name of the program https://www.usa.gov/green-card-lottery

[cudgy]

And yet the tech industry is far from diverse. It is predominantly male, white, and Indian. Did the US H1B program have an effect on this? Were some groups squeezed out even more from the tech industry due to H1B? For example, would there be more Black people in the tech industry without the H1B? More women?

[newsclues]

Per county caps are good protection for your culture.

Canada suffered because a lack of caps.

It leads to a concentration that can be overwhelming.

[grecy]

> Requiring H1B holders to leave the country to renew paperwork is an insane anachronism

FWIW every country requires you leave and come back to change or renew visa status. The computers and processes are all setup at points of entry and just aren’t designed for people that don’t physically leave/enter.

It’s so common the guys at the us/Canada land border call it “flagpoleing” because you literally drive a u turn around the flagpole and go back. I’ve done it a dozen times, even driving 4 hours each way in a gnarley winter storm into Alaska and back to Canada at -45.

[workfromspace]

> every country requires you leave and come back to change or renew visa status

Not true for EU, either.

In fact, how it works in EU is (for non-EU citizens):

- Get a D visa (for residency)

- Get into the country

- Get a temporary residence permit which is for up to 5 years

- Renew residence permit when it's about to expire or basis (employment, study) is changed - WHILE being in the country.

[maowtm]

Not the UK at least, as someone who has done a completely in-country switch from student to skilled worker. In fact you are not allowed to leave the country when your application is in progress (leaving would cancel it).

[mlindner]

Per-country caps remains an absolutely good idea. The goal of immigrants should be to integrate into the society they are joining. Without per country caps you can start creating strange enclaves and you get some of the issues Canada is having.

[i18nsoftware]

Having people who have been living in the country for decades, but have the threat of leaving anytime they get fired from job or due to visa issues doesn't encourage them to "integrate into the society they are joining".

If anything, the way the country caps work in the US right now make integration harder, because no matter how much they try to integrate and be part of the local community, they could be kicked out at any time. That just encourages people to have one foot out the door at all times.

[mlindner]

To be clear, I'm saying too many from one place shouldn't be allowed in in the first place. If they're let in the path to citizenship should be straight forward.

[alienallys]

India has roughly twice the population of Europe and is just as diverse. Treating India as a single, homogeneous entity because it's one country overlooks its vast cultural, linguistic, and demographic diversity—comparable to that of Europe. If diversity justifies country caps, it doesn't apply to India. Clinging to such policies seems outdated.

If India were divided into smaller countries like Europe, the same South Asian population, culture, and diversity would persist, but the artificial constraints tied to the name "India" would disappear.

[tiznow]

I believe this is part of the problem/perception -- Indian immigration via policies like H-1B and whatever Canada does disproportionately offers people from a handful of Indian states (and the highest castes) the chance to be North American tech workers. Even if you say "well, the Indian tech industry is centered on a few states" it in essence is the same problem or perceived problem.

Specific to North America, most people actually like the idea of someone coming from halfway around the world to try to be a citizen of their nation. They do not exactly like the idea of being "carpetbagged" or being "flooded with people who do not integrate" and those perceptions exist not wholly out of imagination.

[bubblethink]

>They do not exactly like the idea of being "carpetbagged" or being "flooded with people who do not integrate" and those perceptions exist not wholly out of imagination.

They do exist wholly out of imagination in this case. You are professing your opinion and stating it as fact. As far as actual immigration statistics go, Indians are a tiny minority, disproportionately successful on wage, crime, and education metrics, and most importantly, legal.

>offers people from a handful of Indian states (and the highest castes).

I really do not get what caste has to do with anything. Which states ? What is the mechanism that favors people from these states or castes ? The legal immigration pathways to the US/Canada are either education or work, and neither of them has any preference for state, caste, etc.

[Threadbare]

Following the sun is a win, faster project delivery and lowered cost of development

[kelnos]

Follow the sun is great for on-call rotations, but I'm my experience, for regular project work, the need for a handoff each day ends up being too much overhead. The teams in vastly different time zones wind up working mostly independently on completely different projects.

[rbanffy]

It brings its own set of communication and cross-cultural challenges.

[pdntspa]

That's for stuff that requires 24/7 support, not some harebrained project management technique that will make all your teams hate you

[Hilift]

> leave the country to renew paperwork is an insane anachronism

Not really. This is really Customs and Border Patrol/Immigration way of saying, you can always do the default/what everyone else does. You can leave and return six months of the year. The key is leave (which they do), they are already declared non-immigrant, and are self-sufficient.

[outworlder]

Not sure what you are talking about. This is about H-1B, aka dual-intent visas. You can have immigrant intent.

Also, if you leave for six months, how are you even working in the US? Which is the point of the visa.