[UweSchmidt]

While we're bashing economics, something I truly miss is that no new high level economic systems are being discussed prominently. As important as fusion in physics or cancer treatment in medicine, we badly need to explore and discuss something beyond the heavily ideologized systems of capitalism, communism and feed this to politics to communicate these potential options to the voters. Say, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism, which is old and half forgotten. It appears as economics is kind of muted, students and professors beholden to an ideology themselves or feeling the need to appease potential employers who are usually politicized institutions with no room for intellectual curiosity. What else remains in terms of practical economics besides determining the inflation rate (oops, that one is also politicized)?

[abeppu]

People love to talk about ideology, but is what what economics should be about? Every major economy on the planet is a mixed economy. In China, government expenditure and revenue are 33.1% and 25.5% of GDP respectively. In the US, the corresponding percentages are 38.5% and 32.9%. Neither totally free markets nor planned economies seem to work, and empirical research obliges economists to look at the economies we actually have.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_governmen...

I think Piketty does kind of do what you're talking about -- and though he makes a good case, I think when he argues for concepts like universal inheritance, that's more an act of political advocacy than economic scholarship. It's for the economist qua economist to study/analyze the conditions under which the rich get richer, or where class mobility decreases, etc -- but it's up to people and governments to choose what they want society to look like.

[johnnyanmac]

My impression is that economics is like voting. We have a dozen different alternative structures that aim to fix many of the most obvious issues from centuries of use. but no government system has an incentive to shake things up to such a degree.

We have a gigantic broken window, but the house still works. And ofc my government system has generally had a reactionary response rather than a preventative one; nothing gets done until it's too late and many people die.

[marxisttemp]

I was hoping that link would be to Georgism! The list of notable Georgists is a testament to how convincing an idea it is.

[shadowerm]

This post is complete nonsense and you obviously haven't looked very hard.

You could start with the work of W Brian Arthur.

Unless by "discussed prominently" you mean youtubers who don't know what they are talking about. Then you would be correct.

[amelius]

Yes economic system is highly flawed.

Elon Musk owns $400B. Earth will become uninhabitable after 1 billion years from now (when the heat of the Sun becomes too large for us).

This means that Musk, if he lived that long, would be able to spend $400 every day until the death of all life on Earth.

This is 15 times the current average daily income worldwide.

If this is not insane, then what is?

[kiba]

I think access to that much capital as assess to strategic resource, not as wealth for individuals.

At that level of wealth, it doesn't make sense to think about fancy cars and mansions and living an extravagant and luxurious lifestyle. At that point, you got it made.

However, if you're talking about building something meaningful, that's a different matter entirely. That requires far more capitals than what is required to sustain a person indefinitely. There are shows that I would love to revive and reboot, such as Stargate. There are researches I want to do or fund, such as research into 3D printing, or do long term research grants so that people can do meaningful work.

The money's not for living. It's for projects. If your personal projects don't require that much money, you can always give it away to fund other people's projects.

[rickydroll]

I agree with you that great wealth can be used to fund meaningful research and development. Unfortunately, as we have seen, great wealth is used to distort society to reinforce their ability to hold onto wealth.

[amelius]

But the article is about basic research. Do you think that we can cut basic research just so that one rich guy can have projects?

[kiba]

I was commenting on people bemoaning about billionaires being too rich, with the implication that billionaires shouldn't ever need that much money.

I don't necessarily agree with the idea of cutting basic research programs and how it's actually structured(short termism, prioritizing novel results over building solid foundation, etc).

[superluserdo]

You're mixing up years and days there. It would be about $1 a day, not 400.

[Acrobatic_Road]

If you couldn't more than $400 a day then nothing great would ever get done.

[lupusreal]

Somehow people making these sort of hypotheticals about billionaires spending or dispersing their money always make a mistake like this.

"Jeff Bezos has 300 billion dollars. There are 300 million people in America, so he could give everybody a million dollars."

For fun, calculate how long the billionaires of America could fund America's social programs if they were taxed at 100%. If you ask people this, the off-the-cusp estimates are usually something like a thousand years, a century, some huge number like that...

[kiba]

Pretty sure it's not going to be 300 billion dollars if you try to cash it out.

[immibis]

why should we consider it 300 billion dollars at all, then?

[JohnCClarke]

that's a thousand dollars each

Even in this populist age, math still counts.

[lupusreal]

It was an illustrative example of the way people botch this sort of math problem. Steve Mould has a video about it IIRC.

[hnbad]

Sure but those hypotheticals are just poorly thought out ways to visualize the imbalance. Another way to do it would be saying "Jeff Bezos has 300 billion dollars, that is 300 thousand millions. There are 300 million people in America, so $1000 has been taken out of every American's share of the national wealth and reserved exclusively for Jeff Bezos". Repeat that for every billionaire in the US and you should be able to demonstrate quite the imbalance.

Of course that assumes you think Earth's and society's (or at least the US's and Americans') resources should exist for all humans (or Americans) and the ideal balance would be based on as little as one needs and as much as one can contribute, i.e. literally how early human communities operated and how human communities still often operate outside economical contexts (e.g. after a natural disaster). You can say that model doesn't scale but I don't see a good argument for why that should be a reason to use a completely different model unless you're literally among the few people it disproportionately benefits (if you ignore how ruinous it usually is to them too at a human and interpersonal level because of how much it alienates them from almost anyone else around them).

[naming_the_user]

That’s also misusing maths though because Amazon is a global company so really you should divide by 8 billion or at least a couple of billion.

As a Brit I think I’ve derived significantly more than $1000 in value through Amazon’s existence as compared with the status quo beforehand, and that’s exclusively counting the shopping part and not anything else they do. You can ask the question about whether it would have happened anyway in a communist paradise or whether Bezos gets the correct percentage of the reward but I mean, it actually is a very useful thing.

Similarly with Apple and Google and so on. These companies make things that people for the most part choose to use.

[jay_kyburz]

This whole argument also assumes there is something called "Americas National Wealth" and that its a zero sum game where there is x dollars to be distributed around to everybody.

Capitalism is not a zero sum game, and people can choose to turn effort into wealth or they can choose to sit around and do nothing.

[d3ckard]

Except he does not. His assets are valued at 400B, provided that he pinky swears not to try to actually sell them, in which case they will be worth much, much less.

[pyrale]

Why is that?

Just because an orderly liquidation would take some time does not mean it would be impossible for him to sell.

As a case in point, when he decided to invest in twitter, he was able to use his wealth pretty easily.

[Cpoll]

He can only share his shares and assets at 400B if the market thinks they're worth 400B, and if there are enough buyers for all 400B. And once he starts selling, the market might re-evaluate the worth of the shares.

Isn't Twitter a good counterpoint? I vaguely recall Musk had a hard time liquidating shares to buy it?

[pyrale]

That is the meaning of what I call orderly liquidation. Sales are usually structured in order not to crash the market.

That being said, just because you need to structure a big sale does not mean it can not be done, or that you can not leverage your asset to have cash available at short notice. For instance, a loan with your actions as collateral will let you structure your divestment over years for a very moderate price.

Again, what I’m describing is not science fiction, it’s litterally what happened with twitter.

Imo it would be a harder challenge to find valuable stuff to buy than to divest orderly.

> Isn't Twitter a good counterpoint? I vaguely recall Musk had a hard time liquidating shares to buy it?

From what I remember, the issue was more along the lines of him making an offer without thinking it would be accepted, and then be under the gun because he was not prepared. Even then, he eventually found a reasonable financing scheme.

[Ntrails]

Selling a billion dollars of amazon via blocks etc with limited market impact? Probably doable if not super cheap.

3-400b? No way. There isn't capacity, you would cause a massive dip in prices. The timelines you would have to exit over would be very long, so disclosure also causes market reaction.

Loans work to an extent, but you get risk adjusted and eg 1bn of amazon stock is pretty low risk whilst 100bn is high risk. Concentration/size vs market cap and adv matter.

You can do it all, at a price, but it would be a lot lower than the current stock price for obvious reasons

[JAlexoid]

I'm pretty sure that he didn't liquidate $50bn in stock to get the money for buying twitter. (That $50bn includes the 20% capital gains tax, that leaves $40bn in cash)

[pyrale]

Yeah, that is my point: you don’t need to fire-sell to get fast cash, you can just use your capital as collateral.

[croes]

That’s why he uses these assets to borrow money

[goatlover]

The (US) economic system isn't economics, anymore than the (US) political system is political science. You're conflating the instance of one particular system with the study of those systems. You're also confusing economists with actual representatives who pass laws. Might as well blame climatologists for climate change.

[shikon7]

That's why he works so hard to colonize other planets.

[efitz]

This is not true and is a very common misunderstanding of modern wealth.

Elon Musk owns hundreds of billions worth of stock.

First, the value of those stocks varies from day to day. He can gain or lose billions of dollars in "net worth" on any given business day.

Second, he is not free to sell that stock however and whenever he wants; he has to get approval from the boards of his various companies and is limited in the timing and amounts he can sell. Additionally, selling large amounts of stock causes the price to drop, AND dilutes his ownership in, and therefore control of, those companies.

I think a lot of people have this stupid idea of Scrooge McDuck swimming in pool of cash, when they think about billionaires. That's not how it works, for most billionaires (I'm not sure about middle eastern oil royalty).

In reality, businessman billionaires have most of their wealth in stock, and it is not liquid, and they borrow against the stock (i.e. use the stock as collateral for personal loans) and sell small percentages of it to finance their lifestyles.

If you created a company, and it became wildly successful, and it was publicly traded, who should "own" the company? Should you be forced to divest, and therefore cede control to people who had no involvement in the company's initial success? Is that good for founders or for companies? How does it benefit society?

Also note that profitability influences stock price, so taking away control from the people who made a company profitable, has a high likelihood of making the company less profitable, which in turn will almost certainly result in each stockholder becoming poorer. Remember that most stockholders aren't Elon Musks, they're John Q. Publics with a 401(k).

[1832]

> Also note that profitability influences stock price, so taking away control from the people who made a company profitable, has a high likelihood of making the company less profitable, which in turn will almost certainly result in each stockholder becoming poorer.

Absolute clown

[narrator]

You're looking at the world as a poor person. If you had Elon's brilliance you'd probably quit after you made $5 million dollars or so and definitely after you sold Zip2 back in the 1990s and spent the rest of your life on the beach. The only reason he's still working as hard as he does is not because he wants to spend that on himself. He wants the glory of going to Mars and having a positive impact on humanity and that requires control of the activities of large companies like SpaceX, etc. which requires ownership stakes in those companies that are valued in the billions.

One of the reasons that he campaigned so hard for Trump is that Kamala's proposed wealth taxes on unrealized capital gains were going to take his companies from him and he'd have to sell to Vanguard or Blackrock, who would give control of the companies to Boeing-tier mediocrity which would mean that we'd never get to Mars. There have been so many companies where the founders sold out and retired because they had enough money and they got bought by big conglomerates who destroyed those companies with mediocre management and neglect. This is the great thing about Elon, he just keeps building and leveraging all that money to create bigger and bigger companies using his creativity and management ability to achieve his goal of launching an era of space exploration.

[macintux]

That is a wildly generous interpretation of his behavior and motivations.

[fdschoeneman]

It's the most likely interpretation toe because it fits the known facts.

Ungenerous interpretations don't make sense and don't fit the known facts.

Musk isn't hiding his intentions. He's blasting them. He wants to make humans an interplanetary species. He wants his name to be associated with that for millennia. I don't see anything wrong with that and have trouble understanding why people hate him souch for it.

[kiba]

That is not what people hate Musk for. They hate Musk because he's that unlikable.

[fdschoeneman]

Why do you not like him?

[xkcd-sucks]

Some people don't want to be an interplanetary species at the expense of more urgent priorities; to them it isn't compelling that an ambitious man wants to immortalize himself using concepts from the science fiction of his childhood

[Zanfa]

> Musk isn't hiding his intentions. He's blasting them. He wants to make humans an interplanetary species.

What people say about what and why they do things and why they actually do them are rarely correlated.

[fdschoeneman]

Okay. What are his intentions? Since you're a mind reader?

[hnbad]

> He wants to make humans an interplanetary species.

Sure, that's one of the things he wants to do. But his actions don't demonstrate that this is the primary thing he wants to do.

You can't build a sustainable colony on Mars without establishing a sustainable supply line until it reaches self-sustainability. Given what we know about Mars at this point, we're easily centuries away from achieving self-sustainability on Mars even if we fully committed to this goal right away. This means it's not just a cool tech problem, it's a logistics problem and logistics are boring. There's a reason Musk has repeatedly said he merely wants to make it possible to colonize Mars, not that he wants to do it. He's also smart enough that he doesn't want to go there himself because he knows it would mean dying in a barren wasteland even in the best of cases. Musk doesn't want to do the digging, he wants to sell the shovels.

If we want to build up the supply lines to colonize Mars, we at the very least need not just cool space tech but also boring stuff like a permanent supply base on the moon. But the moon has become boring ever since the end of the Space Race and building a supply post on the moon is - again - a boring logistics problem first, not a cool space tech problem. And because it's boring, it's far easier to see the big problems with it (all of which not only hold true for Mars but also do so to a much greater scale): any supply lines you build to the moon require supply lines on Earth first.

If you want sustainable supply lines in space, you have to build sustainable supply lines on Earth. And to have sustainable supply lines on Earth for space, you need a sustainable source of surplus resources. And even if we ignore the social implications of generating such "surplus" when millions live in abject poverty, this can only work if we prevent climate change from spiraling further out of control because it's difficult to run a business when the economy has collapsed and even more difficult to get work done when all the workers keep dying (presumably dying consumers are a smaller issue if we only consider valuations not revenue).

Tesla initially produced four reasonably mass market EVs but the most Musk contributed to them personally concept-wise was the childish naming scheme to spell out "S3XY". This was followed by an electric semi that is largely forgotten after the initial hype and the Cybertruck which literally isn't considered road-safe in most countries and hardly qualifies as "mass market". Despite promising FSD for years, the best Tesla has demonstrated since were robotaxi concept cars that again don't seem to have been designed with mass market use in mind. As for FSD and robotics: again Tesla hasn't yet demonstrated any ability to come anywhere near Musk's promises. So contrary to the popular narrative Tesla is not "building an EV future" - not that it would be helping address climate change even if it were because that would require a focus on mass transport.

Which brings us to the next thing: the Boring company. Again Musk's narrative sold this as an important step in preparing for Mars because if water is underground on Mars we'll need a lot of tunnels but the company is best known for its many projects announced and subsequently cancelled or abandoned across the US - and the Las Vegas "Loop" which is a claustrophobic underground shuttle service with gamer lights and mostly exists because Elon Musk hyped the idea of a (high speed vacuum tunnel) "Hyperloop" to - and it's worth pointing out that he has literally admitted as much since - preempt plans to build a public highspeed rail system.

What else was part of the narrative? Oh, right: SolarCity. Again Musk bought a company and claimed it was part of a plan to colonize Mars because we don't have fossil fuels on Mars so certainly the future must be solar - and of course those Tesla Superchargers need to be charged somehow, too. The company was eventually folded into Tesla (as Tesla Energy) and has shifted from mass market solar panels to making most of its revenue from batteries and selling primarily to big customers.

SpaceX at least largely does what it says on the tin if you ignore that it mostly still exists because the US government all but abandoned direct investments in space travel and SpaceX managed to collect a number of lucrative government contracts by controlling a de-facto monopoly position. Starlink also mostly seems to exist to exert an uncomfortable amount of political power over the governments that have bought into it (as the Ukrainians had to find out the hard way).

Elon Musk has an almost obsessive hyperfixation on the letter X and the idea of colonizing Mars, yes - he's autistic. But that doesn't mean everything he does he does in service of that goal. It doesn't even mean he actively contributes towards that goal in a meaningful or well thought out manner. It doesn't explain why he decided to father an uncomfortable number of children with an even more uncomfortable selection of partners (especially when it comes to business partners and employees) or why he's extremely selective in which token child he decides to shower with praise and attention (if not his own then at least in public appearances). It doesn't explain why he actively sabotages more climate friendly public mass transit projects to favor unsustainable individualized transport deliberately designed in such a way it can not be accessible to most. It doesn't explain why he decided to make a great show of "leaving the left" and presenting himself as "anti-woke" just in time when a big hit piece on him was about to be published because of his inappropriate behavior toward women. Etc etc. None of that logically follows from the goal of making humans an interplanetary species except in the most trivial of ways (i.e. stranding a person on Mars would technically make humans an interplanetary species for as long as that person survives).

The hate (if you just want to lump all criticism or distate into that label) Elon Musk gets is not "because he wants to make humans an interplanetary species", he gets it for the things he does. And in many cases what he does is actively damaging to his stated goal.

[fdschoeneman]

Okay what do you think his primary goal is?

[hilux]

Or maybe he just likes the attention, and he likes "winning," as measured by the size of his wealth.

I can think of a prominent politician with the same qualities.

[scottLobster]

Yeah, all his antics in buying/posting on Twitter and his pushing of the Cybertruck, BS androids, "hyperloop" etc are totally part of a grand mission in the service of mankind, and not the acts of an obsessive, socially mal-adjusted narcissist.

Gwynne Shotwell is more responsible for SpaceX's operational success than Elon will ever be, she's clearly done a great job of managing up and letting him take the "glory" he so desperately yearns for, but all he really provided was the initial vision and money. Not to understate that contribution, but his supposed "brilliance" is pure marketing. We've seen what happens we he actually gets meaningful operational control of a company (Twitter) and a product (Cybertruck), and it isn't good.

[7thaccount]

We've already sent probes to Mars. There's no reason to send people other than to show we can. It's extremely uninhabitable...like Antarctica is a paradise in comparison with water, air, and a lack of radiation. We have nowhere near the technology to terraform Mars either. I guess you could dig someone a cave and send them some nuclear batteries and a bunch of prepackaged food, but what's the point?

Elon is an oligarch plain and simple. SpaceX is impressive, and I'm a big fan of NASA's research, but let's look past the marketing of him trying to save the human species or whatever.

I do think humanity may have to settle another world (or move to a post-biological existence where we can just park our satellite brains around a star for energy), but this is going to take a lot of scientific advancement over many centuries. Elon's plan would make a lot more sense if Mars was an Earth 2.0 and we just needed to move a bunch of people there, but it's not and even if we do find something really close to Earth with JWST, it would take centuries to get there. In short, our best approach is to save the planet we already have and continue funding scientific research.

[someuser2345]

> There's no reason to send people other than to show we can.

That is true for lots of other things. What's the point of building the Taj Mahal? What's the point of running a marathon? What's the point of getting the world record for the longest time spent underwater? Just to show that we can.

> Elon's plan would make a lot more sense if Mars was an Earth 2.0 and we just needed to move a bunch of people there, but it's not and even if we do find something really close to Earth with JWST, it would take centuries to get there.

I agree that we probably won't be able to have a viable Mars colony in our lifetime. However, I do think that the pursuit of that goal will result in lots of useful inventions; just look at what SpaceX has accomplished already.

[7thaccount]

Making a reusable rocket is not the same thing as a sustainable settlement in a hostile environment. I mean sure ...why not other than it's a huge waste of resources.

[jay_kyburz]

Musk aside, I think there is huge value in knowing how to sustain human life indefinitely without the earth. In fact, I think its inevitable that humans will need to leave earth at some point in our future.

It may simply be as a result of population and overcrowding, it may be to flee war and persecution. I think there is a small chance we have already made changes to our atmosphere that make life here incompatible with humans.

Its possible that within just a few hundred years, humans need to live entirely within climate controlled environments. If I had Musk level money I would be working on this now.

[johnnyanmac]

> That is true for lots of other things.

it may be a hot take, but yes. A lot of humanity has indeed been ways to show off how big someone's dick is, or as a dick measuring contest.

The moonlanding was an amazing but ultimately useless landmark in the grand scheme of things. Very little of the tech used back then is useful for a practical space supply line. The ability to launch out of our atmosphere and later put sattelites into orbit was 90% of the worth of such resarch 60 years later.

[kiba]

We've already sent probes to Mars. There's no reason to send people other than to show we can. It's extremely uninhabitable...like Antarctica is a paradise in comparison with water, air, and a lack of radiation. We have nowhere near the technology to terraform Mars either. I guess you could dig someone a cave and send them some nuclear batteries and a bunch of prepackaged food, but what's the point?

People always look at this with hard nosed pragmatism. That's the wrong lens to view Space colonization. It's a vision and a dream.

[Spooky23]

ROFL.

Thanks for taking up the mantle for the poor multibillionaires. The poor guy is homeless, after all.

There’s nothing more hilarious than folks devoting time to simp for people like this.

[fdschoeneman]

In answer to your question, it is irrelevant. It doesn't matter how much money musk has, or you have, or bezos has, or the government has. What matters is where that money is invested.

If musk was using his money to bang hookers on solid gold yachts, fine, complain about it. But he isn't. He doesn't even own a house.

Stop worrying about another man's dollar and start worrying about being a better and less covetous person.

[dmonitor]

Elon is clearly using his fortune to enact wide scale societal change. He's currently chilling in the president-elect's house and chatting with foreign leaders. How Elon spends his money shouldn't be my problem, but he's dead set on making it that.

[fdschoeneman]

And what is he trying to change about society?

[dmonitor]

he apparently has a personal axe to grind against transgenders thanks to his daughter. he's also placed himself in charge of some kind of widespread government defunding program with decreased regulations for his businesses at the top of the agenda.

[harimau777]

Wasting his money on luxuries would be preferable to destroying Twitter and funding Trump's reelection.

[SoftTalker]

Yacht makers and hookers need customers too.

[fdschoeneman]

I agree with this but not everyone does. My argument here is crafted to those who do not understand why taxation is theft.

[johnnyanmac]

well you're making a horrible argument of it. All you seem to be doing is saying "he's doing good things" and you dismiss any disagreement with "well what do you think he's doing?" with no further discussion.

Musk is a great argument that while the government is inefficient, they are still beholden to laws and people. Musk isn't. Tax him to high hell.

[thomassmith65]

Cut to Musk tweeting "no fear, buy the dip!" as he unloads some memecoin.