[nashashmi]

> why do people think it’s an ethics question when society is individualistic as can be

Because we disagree that society is individualistic. We are social creatures, not individualist creatures. And we need people around us. Including you needing your grandma. And she needs people like you.

turn the question around: why do people feel easy escapes are ok? We came in this world and were assisted in our upbringing and lived to old age, so why is it ok that we can feel like we can just get up and leave?

[wiseowise]

> why do people feel easy escapes are ok?

Because they are ok. Why wouldn’t they be? You don’t get bonus points after life for suffering on “hardcore”.

> We came in this world

I don’t remember anyone asking me whether I wanted to come in here or not and I sure as hell won’t let anyone dictate how I want to die.

> and were assisted in our upbringing and lived to old age, so why is it ok that we can feel like we can just get up and leave?

Because you’ll die anyway.

[jncfhnb]

What do you need from grandma, who is in constant pain and desires to die?

[nashashmi]

The touch, the voice, the eyes of love, the concern, the stories, the heart, the smile, ... shall I go on?

[jncfhnb]

Grandma doesn’t want to share those stories because it hurts to talk and she can’t see well and just generally she’s in a constant bad mood because her life sucks.

[nashashmi]

That would be the fault of those who are responsible for her happiness

[int_19h]

There are quite a few medical conditions in which it is impossible to make it not hurt.

[jncfhnb]

Ok. Even if we hold that ridiculous assumption true… so what? Let’s say grandma is explicitly suffering because others are failing her?

Your proposed thesis still suggests she does not have justification for choosing death. What does she still owe us.

[nashashmi]

I think you pivoted to another argument. Better would have been if you had started with that argument. Instead you asked what is grandma good for?

[steve_adams_86]

All of this is beautiful stuff, but I think it no longer applies when suffering has removed a person's humanity such that they can't offer these things anymore. At that point they're only capable of putting their energy into suffering. Even your attempts to alleviate their suffering are probably useless, or offer little to no relief.

I don't see why you would think about or hope for these things when they're effectively gone; especially not if wanting these things for yourself is at a loved one's expense.

[wiseowise]

Grandma is long gone, you’re prolonging suffering of her husk for selfish reasons.

[buttercraft]

So you want grandma to suffer for you. How very selfish.

[int_19h]

Because nobody has the moral right to demand that other people suffer for their own sake.

[coffeefirst]

Because I’ve seen the slow end and I wouldn’t wish that degree of suffering on anyone.