[joejohnson]

It’s an interesting debate: are things less democratic now than at other points in American history? Or have the wealthy always been able to buy influence in this way?

My opinion is that institutional “norms” are not being followed lately, any maybe that makes this sort of corruption more blatant, but that this relationship between business and government is a feature of American government from the start.

See the hundreds of anecdotes from “Making of an Atlantic Ruling Class” (1984, Kies van der Pijl) or “A People’s History of the United States” (1980, Howard Zinn).

In capitalism, democracy is window dressing, the tool for settling disputes among the upper class.

[globalnode]

Ive always seen the american govt really as a tool to support american business, it seems others have that opinion too.

[harimau777]

It seems to me that the Andrew Carnegies of the world had a sense of noblesse oblige which led them to try to use their wealth to make the world better. Then we had more modern businessmen who were just focused on making money. However, now with people like Musk we have billionaires who are proactively making the world worse.

Don't get me wrong, billionaires have always hurt people, but at least there used to be some sort of norms that they followed.

[gruez]

>It seems to me that the Andrew Carnegies of the world had a sense of noblesse oblige which led them to try to use their wealth to make the world better. Then we had more modern businessmen who were just focused on making money. However, now with people like Musk we have billionaires who are proactively making the world worse.

1. I feel like you're giving too much credit to Andrew Carnegies, who was literally a "robber baron"[1]. He might have engaged in some philanthropy, but to suggest he wasn't "just focused on making money" is viewing the past with rose tinted glasses.

2. Define "use their wealth to make the world better". Does bill gates count? What about george soros or charles koch? Elon musk ostensibly wants humans to colonize mars. Why doesn't that count as "use their wealth to make the world better"?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber_baron_(industrialist)

[exceptione]

> My opinion is that institutional “norms” are not being followed lately, any maybe that makes this sort of corruption more blatant, but that this relationship between business and government is a feature of American government from the start.

1. Indeed. The Dems are just starting to realize that for the GOP to gain power anything goes, where previously there was a common understanding of what is of limits. So anyone and anything is turned into a tool. Fake news, gerry mandering, voter buying, voter suppression, smearing, attacking family members, appointing compromised clients as justice, immigrants, buying editorial boards, obstructing disaster relief, fake news on covid, denying health care to woman so they die and so on.

This is not politics anymore. This is total contempt for the system. A contempt shared by the tech bro's.

2. Yes, there has always been a brown current in the US elites. The coup in 1933 failed due to the press not providing enough support, so it lacked the support of the general public: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot

  Butler, a retired Marine Corps major general, testified under oath that wealthy businessmen were plotting to create a fascist veterans' organization with him as its leader and use it in a coup d'état to overthrow Roosevelt.

  Although no one was prosecuted, the congressional committee final report said, "there is no question that these attempts were discussed, were planned, and might have been placed in execution when and if the financial backers deemed it expedient." 

It looks like the US elites are hesitant to prosecute their own, even when trying to stage a coup.