[CMDBob]

It's funny, as my phone (A 2022 Moto Razr) can work as PC, if I plug it into a monitor with it's USB-C port. I can plug it into a monitor, and plug a mouse and keyboard into the monitor's inbuilt USB-C hub, and it works just fine. Has a desktop mode and everything! If the monitor doesn't have a hub in it, I can use the phone as a mouse/touchpad! Plus, if the monitor supports it, it'll even keep it charged rather than using the battery!

And I don't just use it as a gimmick, I use a HDMI/USB-C cable to use it with my TV as a streaming/light gaming setup. Nice to be able to plug it in, kick off a streaming app or Youtube, or play some Minecraft or something on my TV in bed, all comfy.

[rjh29]

All high end Samsung phones can do this as well (DEX).

[jajko]

Can confirm, S22 ultra when plugged into Dell docking box (or whatever its called, not a typical docking station, it just connects with laptop via thick USB-C cable) works out of box, with mouse and keyboard.

Firefox with ublock origin works very well for example. The only thing is it doesn't adjust automatically to native screen resolution (1600p in my case). But its still just an Android, even with full filesystem access it feels vastly subpar to normal desktop PC if I need more than just browsing or other android apps.

[jcul]

My dream was to be able to use VR glasses and something like Samsung dex for an ultra portable coding workstation.

I bought a pair of Viture Pro glasses, but they were pretty unusable for coding for me. Maybe for watching videos would have been OK but not typing / needing to read all areas of the screen.

[EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK]

I am thinking of using it as a remote desktop to connect to my home or server PC. Shouldn't be very CPU consuming.

[wkat4242]

Yeah Firefox on DeX also lacks pc style tabs which Chrome does have. It's the only case where I really use chrome a lot.

[rjh29]

Chrome even switches to tabs when you unfold the Fold phones, which is really nice.

[amelius]

How secure is it? Will Samsung or others be able to look over your shoulders?

[rolandog]

Boy do I have some bad news for you: Automated Content Recognition [0, 1, 2]. If your Smart TV is connected to the Internet, it can also track what you're watching or doing, even if you're using it as an external monitor [3] (in Dutch).

[0]: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41658828

[2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41669765

[3]: https://tweakers.net/nieuws/227186/samsung-automatische-cont...

[amelius]

We're talking about phones here, not TVs.

Or are you saying this is built into phones too?

[rolandog]

TL;DR: I'm of the opinion that the answer is probably "not yet", "it's in the works", or "it's already here, but not yet widely known".

In short, I couldn't find strong conclusive evidence for "yes" or "no".

The Wikipedia article on ACR [0] seems to be quoting CIO-Wiki [1] --- or vice-versa. The statement would imply "yes":

> Real-time audience measurement metrics are now achievable by applying ACR technology into smart TVs, set top boxes and mobile devices such as smart phones and tablets. This measurement data is essential to quantify audience consumption to set advertising pricing policies.

On the other hand, a paper on ACR [2] implies it only occurs on TV's (so, this points us towards "no"):

> [...] Unlike traditional online tracking in the web and mobile ecosystems that is typically implemented by third-party libraries/SDKs included in websites/apps, ACR is typically directly integrated in the smart TV’s operating system. [...]

... but then, in its conclusion one could make the case for "not yet" as they reference Microsoft's Recall (this, to me, makes me lean on "not yet"):

> [...] Finally, although different than ACR, our auditing approach can be adopted to assess privacy risks of Recall (Microsoft, 2024) – which analyzes snapshots of the screen using generative AI (Warren, 2024). [...]

Collecting my thoughts on this paper, I'm a bit disappointed that we seem to have a double-standard for the nomenclature: if the content recognition happens on a PC, then it's labeled as "generative AI" (should've probably been called LLM by the authors) and if it takes place on a TV-shaped computer (they're mostly Android TV's, after all, right?) then it's called ACR. I think that it has not been properly articulated that what people are worried about [3] is that Microsoft's Windows Recall is (or will become) "ACR with extra steps".

To conclude (and extend this to the mobile phone domain), I'll leave a "thought experiment": is all the AI processing power on new mobile phones going to be used exclusively by the users, and for the users?

-----

Some nuanced notes...

I'm conflicted about whether to demonize ACR entirely or not. To me, "ACR" means something that is running all the time listening to user's surroundings or screenshotting a user's displayed information for the purposes of improving targeting or tracking their behavior (this seems to match Wikipedia's definition at first glance). I am in part validated by [2] as well:

> [...] At a high level, ACR works by periodically capturing the content displayed on a TV’s screen and matching it against a content library to detect the content being viewed on the TV. It is essentially a Shazam-like technology for audio/video content on the smart TV (Mohamed Al Elew, 2023).

However, after doing some research, I discovered that a particular knowledge field may be misusing the term (or using the ACR term for lack of a better term like "reverse image search" or "content-based image retrieval" --- CBIR, CBVIR, QBIC --- in their vocabulary), and perhaps in the process inadvertently "whitewashing" the term.

Take, for example, the European Union's Intellectual Property Office's (EUIPO's) discussion paper titled "Automated Content Recognition: Discussion Paper – Phase 2 ‘IP enforcement and management use cases’" [4] (PDF). I think that they are conflating some terms like hashing, fingerprinting, watermarking and labeling it under the ACR term, then they're making valid-sounding use-cases like "smartphone solutions to detect genuine or counterfeit products" (products, by definition, are not content,... so I fail to see how ACR ties in). Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can correct me if I'm misreading the paper (I am no IP lawyer, but have worked as an Information Security Officer).

I think the EUIPO paper also glosses over some possible privacy implications: e.g., they link to an article called "Are 3D printed watermarks a “grave and growing” threat to people’s privacy?" [5], but in the context of using "RFID tags or serial numbers" to protect IP on 3D printed objects ... they do not discuss the possible privacy implications of, for example, being tracked by a possible "RFID-tag-cloud" of such objects. I know that this is beyond the scope of "is there ACR running on mobile phones", but I wanted to showcase what I think is the misuse of the ACR term to expand into the physical --- "offline" --- world, in the process losing its more "academic" meaning.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_content_recognition

[1]: https://cio-wiki.org/wiki/Automatic_Content_Recognition_(ACR...

[2]: https://arxiv.org/html/2409.06203v1

[3]: https://www.windowscentral.com/software-apps/windows-11/micr...

[4]: https://euipo.europa.eu/tunnel-web/secure/webdav/guest/docum...

[5]: https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/are-3d-printed-watermark...

[fennecbutt]

That's a really longwinded way of admitting that you don't know lmao.

[EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK]

Why would it be connected to internet if used as external monitor? Just don't tell it the wi fi password.

[rolandog]

Sorry for the delay in my response.

To answer your question directly: I'm pointing out unexpected privacy pitfalls of using a smart TV's full set of features (i.e. running apps and using it ... as a monitor).

Although I agree with the point of your solution... I disagree with minimizing the danger of such anti-features.

To elaborate, try thinking of your average reasonable person and think of their journey into learning how to preserve their privacy without losing access to the features of the services and products they have paid for. Without a massive effort it is ultimately an oxymoron.

A reasonable person would expect that your (internet connected) smart TV would collect info to help them tailor future products based on their customer's usage (app usage frequency, standard or cable usage frequency, frequency of usage as external monitor). You would not expect to have to watch what you say in front of the such a device because they're literally listening to you [0] (in 2015, you needed to use the remote to use the voice detection service).

Additionally, reasonable user's of smart TV's (and other IoT devices) might feel like they are no longer tracked with their uniquely identifiable information because they turned off "targeted advertising" (if the service allows for setting that option), but that only prevents their advertising ID from being tracked [1].

Moreover, a reasonable person might expect that using a DNS-based blocklist would be a sort of "revocation of consent" to being tracked, but tracking services are savvy when it comes to PII exfiltration [2]:

> [...] We find that personally identifiable information (PII) is exfiltrated to platform-related Internet endpoints and third parties, and that blocklists are generally better at preventing exposure of PII to third parties than to platform-related endpoints. [...]

Finally, there have also been studies that show a lack of transparency when it comes to GDPR requests about the data collected through Automatic Content Recognition (ACR) [3].

So, my point is that "just don't use your product for most of its intended use" might be a thought-terminating cliche that prevents us from taking a step forward in stopping the normalization of unreasonable privacy transgressions (PII exfiltration, audio spying by third-party service providers, monitoring of external devices' screens).

[0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-31296188

[1]: https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/11/20908128/smart-tv-survei...

[2]: https://arxiv.org/abs/1911.03447

[3]: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/electronic-electrical-engineering/news...

[boomskats]

Not the ones that compete with the aforementioned Razr, unfortunately.

[wkat4242]

The latest Z Fold6 can do DeX but its a bit hidden, not official.

[rjh29]

The Fold4 switches to dex as soon as you connect a monitor. I wonder why they made it harder to use?

[wkat4242]

Ooops. Sorry.

I meant the Z Flip 6. Not the fold. The folds have always had fully supported DeX.

The Flips did not have a DP-capable USB-C port until the Flip 5, and still did not support DeX due to thermals. But the Flip 6 has it with a developer option, but only the "new" DeX.

Sorry for the confusion on my side. I thought of the Flip as the OP mentioned the Motorola Razr which is positioned against that, not the Fold.

[water-your-self]

What temperature does your phone reach when you do this for an hour?

[david-gpu]

Phones perform thermal throttling before getting too hot. The question thus becomes: how does it perform after one hour?

[EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK]

Not great) Tried replacing my laptop with a Samsung phone+monitor combination on a trip, didn't really work out. Phones are not built for continuous load.

[wkat4242]

The official DeX docks have a fan built in. This helps a lot especially if you take the phone out of the case. I need to do so anyway because the usb doesn't go in deep enough without it.

[EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK]

dock + fan + monitor already weights more than a laptop ..

[wkat4242]

Umm yeah but I don't travel with those. I keep them on site. And just plug in my phone when I get there. I have one set up at every place I am a lot.

[david-gpu]

Yeah, I used to work on what was eventually sold as the Meta Quest VR headset and we all knew that thermal throttling would be a major sticking point.

Thankfully my job was all about reducing rendering latency to prevent people from getting nauseous, so thermal throttling was outside of my scope.

[Nursie]

I had a Huawei P20 Pro that did much the same back in 2018.

I never really used it for much, a bit of light browsing and really just as a gimmick, buit yeah, there was a desktop of sorts and you could use all the apps, and the touchpad/mouse thing worked. You could attach a bluetooth keyboard too, IIRC.

Kindof a shame my iphone doesn't do this (I assume, I haven't tried), but I'm not sure if I'd use it.

[haltcatchfire]

iPhone has good support for peripherals, hubs and external displays, but lacks a desktop mode.

[rcarmo]

Actually, I use my iPhone with a USB-C/HDMI cable, the Remote Desktop client and a Bluetooth keyboard when traveling. Some apps will let you use an additional display just fine.

[Nursie]

Oh interesting, I suppose I have had it wirelessly project to the tv before...

I might give it a go when I upgrade to a USB-C model.

[Nursie]

OK so I've now tried this with a new USB-C iphone.

Yeah it's painful to use! You can set up a mouse, and use a physical keyboard for input, but it doesn't attempt to do any more than mirror the screen onto the external device by default.

Huawei's desktop mode was limited, but I think you're right - you can say the iphone has good device compatibility, but there's not a good way to use it docked. Not that the android ones were 'good', but they made an attempt!

[amelius]

Great, can I plug a USB drive in, and use it?

[easton]

Yes: https://support.apple.com/en-sg/guide/iphone/iph95baac91f/io...

Works fine. I don't know if you can format drives, but you can definitely read and write to external disks and network shares.

[rcarmo]

Yes, if it's USB-C. You won't like the experience though.

[swiftcoder]

Which is quite frankly weird, given that the iPad has fairly robust mouse/keyboard support at this point, and at least some nods towards window management

[austinjp]

Interesting, I wouldn't mind an Android phone that can do similar, but I'm not looking for a clamshell. For anyone else who, like me, is naive about such things, the key search terms seem to be: DisplayPort alternate mode over USB-C. Support seems patchy.

[herbst]

I hate USB-C for laptop charging ports, to fragile for regular use. However I build a few things recently and I love the simplicity.

- External Touch Screen - only needs one cable, usbc, for picture, sound, touch, power! ... (DP mode you mentioned required)

- As power source. My caravan computer (Dell wyse 5070) uses usbc as power source with a cheap DC slot adapter. My laptop charges in usb-c from 60w or more.

- We have 2 Rolands (p-1, s-1) both can use their usbc cable for direct audio in AND out which just works on Linux.

- For the Roland's I can use my phone as sound DAW or source, or both. I can also attach the touch screen, ...

All using the same (cheap and available) cable. Which is amazing and took my whole life to get to.

[tomcam]

What is a Roland p-1? All I could find was this https://proav.roland.com/global/products/p-1/

[herbst]

P-6 is what I ment :)

[tomcam]

Ah, relief

[jakub_g]

FWIW, apparently Google shipped software support for DP Alt Mode for Pixel 8 and newer a few months ago.