[mmooss]

> Most people don't find a small measure of indirect control equally reassuring as a large measure of direct control. For example I can directly control my water usage but have very little indirect control over the world's water usage. So psychologically things out of direct control tend to be felt like outside of control.

I think the evidence is overwhelmingly otherwise. Most people in many, many cultures embrace democracy, for example; they mass protest - a seemingly universal human behavior; they organize themselves to achieve political ends - including over water usage.

As I said, this powerlessness is a meme. I think it's not only self-defeating, it's dangerous to society - it's irresponsible, because we are all responsible and we need the mass participation we have historically had.

[vacuity]

You are right about the theoretical capabilities of the populace, but in practice the psychological profile is such that there isn't much weight to your words. Many people could each think no one else cares because collective action is nothing if a collective doesn't form. And to some extent, they're not wrong. If I devote my life to fighting oil pipeline activity, here and now, how much can I achieve? Am I going to be able to reach the critical mass of allies to push against one bill or event? How about n bills? So you're right, but you would be a lot more right if humans could act like unfeeling automatons when necessary.

> As I said, this powerlessness is a meme.

Exactly. And because it is, it has made us powerless. Funny how that works, genuinely.

[mmooss]

> You are right about the theoretical capabilities of the populace, but in practice the psychological profile is such that there isn't much weight to your words. Many people could each think no one else cares because collective action is nothing if a collective doesn't form.

It's not theoretical. Collective action happens all the time - it's fundamental human behavior.

> Exactly. And because it is, it has made us powerless. Funny how that works, genuinely.

You can change it, starting now.

[jumping_frog]

Metaphor I would use is "using seed crystals to start crystallization process".

[vacuity]

I am perfectly aware. But if I thought it was easy, I would've done it already. It's not a matter of whether we can achieve something, but whether we will. As it is, I and probably many others find it hard to devote mental and physical energy to causes that are fairly intractable and require sustained, collective willpower that is unlikely to manifest in practice.

[mmooss]

> that are fairly intractable and require sustained, collective willpower that is unlikely to manifest in practice.

> if I thought it was easy

Your premises are false; that's the problem. Nothing is stopping you in reality.

You can easily do something about that.

[jumping_frog]

We never will if we don't attempt. So the discussion ends before it starts.