[bluefirebrand]

> Costs them a phone every 2-ish years and a service plan, so that isn't even remotely free

This doesn't seem relevant, honestly. People more or less need a phone to function in society nowadays, it's not really optional and it becomes more and more required all the time. So owning a phone and having a plan for it is more or less a sunk cost for almost everyone already

I suspect you will quibble about this, phones aren't actually required, people could live without them.. but more and more you cannot participate in society without one. More and more you need mobile 2FA to interact with your banking, government services etc. Hell some restaurants you can't even see the menu without a phone to view QR codes on. Owning a phone is "optional" but the cost of not having one is high enough that it is basically ridiculous to suggest people should save money by not having one

So if we take that a phone and plan is already a baseline, it's not really an extra expense for people to scroll feeds

Meanwhile a hobby that requires access to specialized tools is an extra expense, and sometimes a big one

Most poor people I've ever known (including myself, years ago) fix their own cars out of necessity because it's cheaper than going to a mechanic, not as a hobby

[dgfitz]

I'll give you the phone thing.

You said: > And yes, people may genuinely prefer to watch videos about working on cars rather than reading a book, when they would really rather be working on their own car but can't afford to

And then said: > Most poor people I've ever known (including myself, years ago) fix their own cars out of necessity because it's cheaper than going to a mechanic, not as a hobby

These seem at odds with each other.

People are generally poor because they were never taught how to manage money, not because they don't have any.

I'm not trying to argue with you in the sense that one of us absolutely right and the other is not, I just can't see it.

[bluefirebrand]

There is a difference between "working on your car" as a hobby versus "working on your car" out of necessity because you need a working vehicle to get to work, get groceries, etc

Working on a car as a hobby is generally expensive, buying nice parts and building something awesome to drive. Maybe drive on a track, even.

Poor people working on a car are usually doing it out of necessity to keep it running.

> People are generally poor because they were never taught how to manage money, not because they don't have any.

I mostly disagree. Yes, financial literacy is a problem, but most poor people are poor because necessities like rent, groceries, a vehicle, insurance, etc are all expensive and they do not have in-demand skills to earn significantly more income than their expenses

"People are generally poor because they were never taught how to manage money" is an attitude that goes hand in hand with statements like "If people just stopped buying their daily coffee they wouldn't be poor"

But actually poor people can't afford a daily coffee in the first place