[tharkun__]

    in the article I wrote how detrimental it is to the developer's social life, to know multiple languages.

That is an opinion and not fact. One based on your personal experience that is not universal in any way. Knowing multiple programming languages is quite normal and I would expect any good software developer to pick and up be able to program in (almost) any language. I guess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck might be an exception. JCL comes close to it.

We learned this in high school and it was super fun: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Busy_beaver

Do I expect everyone to be an instant expert in any language? Or able to create the busiest beaver? No of course not! But I do expect any decent programmer to pick up any programming language and work in it.

Do we all have preferences? Heck yes! I absolutely dislike Python and would not take a job where I have to program in it if I wasn't forced to by circumstances. I've never done C# or Lua professionally but it was super easy to pick both up when I dabbled with them for game development in private (each respective game engine used these languages for scripting).

    Secondly, companies need to realize that they request multiple programming languages because the current programming languages can't parse stack traces

I read something like that in the article and it still makes no sense whatsoever when I read it here either. Parsing a stack trace in various languages is absolutely possible. But what's that got to do with anything?

FWIW, yes, I've actually looked at previous stack frames (e.g. `e.getCause()` in Java) for error handling. It always felt very very dirty but it was my only choice under the circumstances.

    they push everything to microservices

We have to distinguish the why there.

Some companies (meaning the people within those companies) because they read about how Netflix has x-many of them and it's the thing to do today. Stay away from those companies. They will also make you do other things just because someone read an article of forbes.com.

And then there's companies that are actually trying to solve similar problems as the ones that Netflix was trying to solve with microservices and it actually makes sense to model their internal application service landscape that way! We're in that space for example. We have one big legacy "macroservice" aka very monolithic core and then we have a bunch of newer microservices (some larger, some smaller) that actually solve problems. All of these microservices are written in exactly two languages: Java and Kotlin. Newer ones in Kotlin, older ones in Java (like the legacy monolith). The FE is written in exactly one language by now: Typescript (converted from quite a large javascript code base over multiple years).

    so they can parse their errors from DevOps services

What does that even mean? Makes no sense to me whatsoever. If you're talking about having a central log analytics service like Splunk, Datadog or Graylog et al. then that has nothing to do with microservices or multiple languages. At a previous place we had a bunch of monoliths make up the overall application and splunk so that you'd be able to actually reason about what the system overall was doing for any given overall user transaction / session and it was awesome to have. And if you have any sort of actual need to run software that has uptime requirements, then you are going to run at least two replicas of whatever service you created, monolith or not and you want a central log aggregation service.

I'm really sorry to say this, but it seems like your articles are really just ranting about things that you personally don't like for one reason or another but there's no actual real reasoning or universal truth to it.

[rmanolis]

to understand what I said, you have to solve the Error Handling Challenge, in your favorite programming language https://rm4n0s.github.io/posts/3-error-handling-challenge/

When you try to implement it, then everything on what I said will make sense to you.

Also, we don't need log systems when there is a programming language like Odin to parse stack traces with type checking (not just string like you gave me as an example from Java).

In microservices you are the error handlers. For example, if in the logs you see a stack trace, then you will go to the code and fix the error.

In Odin I don't need to go in that trouble, because ALL the stack traces can be handled. There will be no undefined behavior in software or unexpected input that caused an unexpected stack trace, so there is no reason to have logs.

[tharkun__]

I looked at that and I find it pretty funny. As in, why would I ever build error handling that cares about the specific call stack to handle the error? That makes no sense to me. I'll show you why.

Let's say you have the call stack as this (from your example):

    f4()->
      f3()->
        f1()->
          ErrInvestmentLost

Great, I'll handle this based on the fact that f1 was called by f3 (in the Java example, you'll just inspect e.getCause() until you reach the desired point in the trace - basically do what `printStackTrace()` but don't print it and instead do your error handling based on it).

But nobody would ever want to do this because it's super brittle. I change f4 so that it first calls f17, which then calls f3, which then calls f17 again, which calls f1 and your error handling based on the call path is suddenly broken.

What is it that you are trying to even achieve by doing this? Proper error handling doesn't depend on the call path. Proper error handling depends on the type of error that occurred and whether you can actually handle it at all or if you just have to give up and throw the error all the way to where it will get logged for a programmer to take a look at why it happened and why we couldn't handle it.

Your claim about being able to handle "all stack traces" makes no sense to me. You don't handle stack traces. You handle error types.

A real world example of the above (taking Java as an example again) might be a REST resource. My error handling should not depend on nor suddenly break, just because someone configured a new filter in the filter chain that sits above the actual resource method. Say someone added in a `AuthenticationFilter` that checks if some auth token is present and valid and that didn't used to be the case. Now any error handling in my resource method that was based on the exact stack trace combination that existed before that filter was added will break horribly.

[rmanolis]

Odin can make stack traces as error types.

Your system with Java will break if someone else add an AuthenticationFilter, but my system in Odin will not even compile until I have handled all the stack trace paths that include AuthenticationFilter.

Do you see the differences between handling stack traces with union types rather than string?

[tharkun__]

I don't see how it improves or gives me anything, no.

See, the `AuthenticationFilter` sits outside of my REST resource. I could not care less that someone configured it and that at runtime, based on some configuration that can change without even needing a recompilation, this filter will either be there on the stack or it won't.

My resource does not interact with this filter in any way and when an error happens somewhere down in another method I call, then I don't care that I was called with or without the auth token having been checked by said filter. I might care whether the method I called threw a `SQLException` or a `JSONParseException` but very probably I don't even care about that at all because I can't do anything specific in either case and will just throw it further (i.e. not handle it, other than potentially logging it).

Java actually tried the whole "specify all error situations with checked exceptions and otherwise the code won't even compile" and it failed miserably and you are hard pressed to see anything new derive from `Exception`. Everyone uses `RuntimeException`. It does come at a cost, because now I no longer have the hassle of explicitly knowing and deciding what to do with these exceptions and I may only figure out that a particular type of error can happen once I "see it in the wild" (e.g. in my logs, coz something failed) or I'm lucky enough to have actually read the documentation and handled all the exceptions I wanted to handle.

But that happened precisely because it was just too much to have all your code specify these exceptions when everyone figured out that 99% of all code just threw them further up the stack. You call one new library method that specifies an exception and you suddenly have to adjust 127 other files and the only thing you do is to declare all those methods will also just throw the exception further up the stack.

[rmanolis]

Odin's way does not mean that you have to do something for every Exception that is thrown to you. Also, in Odin SQLException can not exist, it is too generic, but SQLClosedConnException which is more specific can give a different story to a stack trace, which you can handle.

For example, in Authentication_Filter_Error union, you will have another union called SQL_Verify_Account_Error, that it will contain SQL_Error enum with the Closed_Conn value.

Imagine your stack trace like this Authentication_Filter_Error -> SQL_Verify_Account_Error -> SQL_Error.Closed_Conn

Now when you know that can happen (through CDD), you can create a switch statement to catch the specific stack trace, to call the system administrator in the middle of the night to check what happens.

This is how software should handle its errors and there is not even a need to log it.

In your scenario, you wake up, you go to work, everyone is screaming at the office, you check the logs, you see the problem, and then you call the system administrator for the problem.

[tharkun__]

I agree with half of that. The half that says that most exceptions thrown from libraries today and in much of application code as well are way too generic and hide the details that might allow handling them in a `message` String.

However, that's still about the exceptions thrown from down thread, not from the call path part of the "stack trace".

I.e. your situation would never happen.

    Authentication_Filter_Error -> SQL_Verify_Account_Error -> SQL_Error.Closed_Conn

This stack / call path is impossible, because when the AuthenticationFilter notices that the token is invalid, it returns a 401 or 403 or whatever is appropriate and my REST resource is never actually called. There's no SQL being run and very definitely no "connection closed" error occurred.

But let's say there was a distinction made with proper exception types and instead of `SQLException("Connection closed")` and `SQLException("Statement timeout")`, I actually received `SQLException(ConnectionClosedException())` vs. `SQLStatementTimeoutException`. Now, without string parsing, I can know that either the connection just closed or that the statement was aborted due to timeout. If these are checked exceptions, I have to declare that I'm aware these can happen and what I want to do with them: Handle or rethrow.

However, a myriad of such exceptions can happen. I would probably have to declare 20-50 exceptions way up in a REST resource layer. Not only can these two happen, but many other situations on the network or database side and on the JSON parsing side for the payload I receive, some exceptions from my business logic etc.

And for most of these, what can I do? If the connection to the database closed, all I can do is to log the error and return a `500 Internal Server Error` to my caller. Guess what I can do when a statement timeout occurs? I log the error and return a `500 Internal Server Error` to my caller. For a statement timeout I can't even return a `400 Bad Request`, because it's not knowable if the statement timeout occurred because the database was simply overloaded in that moment or if the request itself was created with such parameters as to always cause a statement timeout. Until we see the logs and through investigation figure out that it wasn't a bad request after all anyway. We were missing an index and the table finally grew large enough for that to matter.

So yeah, I'm good with `RuntimeException` and handling only very few specific ones ever.

Also nobody will be screaming when the token is invalid and I definitely don't call any system administrator. That's something you as a developer look into. Same with the statement timeout.