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by dariusj18 566 days ago
> I've built plenty of interactive apps with JavaScript without using frameworks

And once you reach sufficient project complexity, you will end up with just another homegrown framework, with all the lessons learned by mature frameworks, left to be fixed over the next 5 years.
1 comments
baobabKoodaa 566 days ago
Oh yeah? And when will that happen? Because people have been throwing this argument at me since at least 2014. I still haven't slipped on a banana peel and accidentally fallen on a homegrown framework. You don't just create a framework by accident.
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dariusj18 566 days ago
I don't have any context, but I do have trouble imagining that any of your projects have scale/complexity above brochure-ware if you haven't run into this.
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baobabKoodaa 566 days ago
If you have trouble imagining, here's one such project: https://github.com/baobabKoodaa/ouija
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floydnoel 565 days ago
I have a lot of "framework free" single-developer projects as well (such as https://bongo.to ), but that isn't really what I think we are talking about here. Single developer projects can do whatever they want, it isn't a problem. The problem comes when you have to work with distributed teams, juniors, etc. One way or another a large team still has to come to agreements about how to do things, and without an external reference it will have to be made up in an ad-hoc manner instead. This often leads to issues, many of us have noticed.
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baobabKoodaa 565 days ago
The goalposts just keep moving...

The claim upthread was that you couldn't make a web app at all without a framework ("or it would just be a document"). I said yes you can and the goalposts shifted to: sure, but only "brochure-ware" (referring to simple unambitious projects). I show an ambitious interactive project made without a framework and now the goalposts are moving to: sure, but large distributed teams couldn't work like this? You know, this solo project is more ambitious than 99% of the projects I work on at my actual work. You know, projects that have 10, 40, or 100 devs working on it.

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quantadev 565 days ago
I absoluetly agree with your sentiment, and furthermore in projects as large and mature as mine, with 500K LOC (about maybe 30% in TypeScript) lots of times I simply cannot remember enough about my code to effectively refactor it from memory without type safety (to check me) and IDE refactoring to DO the refactoring.

I mean if I need to change a variable name in a class or something, unless it's a perfectly unique name (easily searchable), it would take me hours to do in JS what I can do in 4 seconds with TypeScript.

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quantadev 566 days ago
Even if you know of massive projects in JS, the problem isn't that they cannot exist, it's that maintaining them takes 100x the manpower it would in TypeScript.
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philipwhiuk 565 days ago
Jesus Christ, a 1300 line single file codebase.
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baobabKoodaa 565 days ago
Not a single file codebase
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philipwhiuk 563 days ago
Sorry:

a codebase with a 1300 line file.

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quantadev 565 days ago
> Not a single file codebase.

Yes it is. App.js is all the code there is. You can't count the two other files with 10 lines each. lol. Let's be honest here.

And yeah for a tiny toy project like this you can get away with having zero design, zero architecture, zero object models, zero classes, and sure since everything is zero, we can throw in "Zero TypeScript" and "Zero Frameworks". Looks like some high-schooler's first ever coding project.

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