[strogonoff]

Thinking that recycling would address the problem of plastic pollution is wishful thinking. Plastic recycles very poorly.

Companies like plastic because it means thicker margins for them, environment be damned; the proper solution is not to buy into the “consumers should be recycling” narrative but to thin out their margins so that using more sustainable and recyclable materials is financially attractive again.

[emptiestplace]

Yes. As someone who is used to putting far too much thought into grocery shopping, it is virtually impossible to advance this change on an individual level. The company making the sustainable toothbrushes is owned by turtle hating petroleum companies or worse. I probably just seem cynical or shitty, but I would be hesitant to potentially induce guilt in individuals who feel they aren't doing enough when there are no better options (within reach, anyway).

Nobody is individually dictating plastic use, and no truly high-level system exists to prescribe it: this is all largely emergent. I think we should try, and I think we need to hold ourselves and each other accountable, but ... what if this is just how it goes?

[advael]

A major reason why petrochemicals are such an economical solution in so many places in the supply chain is that petrol companies are drastically subsidized by governments. Merely ceasing those subsidies might go a long way to help

[strogonoff]

It is easy to forget that plastic is made from oil. Most people just do not have that association in their mind.

The oil industry may be looking down the barrel of renewables eating at a good chunk of their profit and subsidy money. I expect them to do all they can to keep plastic attractive in the eyes of the public.

[Gare]

On the other hand, plastic industry consumes only around 6% of oil and gas production globally. Not really something they can count on to continue business-as-usual.

[blitzar]

> Thinking that recycling would address the problem of plastic pollution is wishful thinking

People putting their rubbish in the bin rather than throwing it in the nearest gutter / river / garden would get us 90% of the way there.

[0xEF]

I agree with your sentiment, but I also feel like this is hyperbolic.

I spend a lot of time on trails and in parks in the US. Perhaps it is different elsewhere, but we typically do not see much trash in those areas, in most cases the trash we do see being a shopping bag or candy wrapper that has blown in from elsewhere or accidentally dropped. Yes, we see some intentional, careless stuff which is upsetting (and we clean it up if we can) but I will never act liike everyone is just throwing their trash wherever. Most people throw their trash away in appropriate spots, leaving a tiny percentage that is being malicious about it. I'd say that's pretty good.

One thing we do have a problem with is overflowing trash bins. This is two-fold. The bins in parks and trails do get changed on a regular schedule, but it seems that these days it is not often enough. The second problem is packaging. So many foods and products come in ridiculous amounts of packaging that the bins get full quickly because said packaging is bulky and difficult to break down.

For the most part, I think people here are doing a good job of trying to keep the trash where it belongs, giving what I consider a reasonable effort. But we're up against companies like the ones listed in the article and their practices that are producing tons of unnecessary plastics. Knowing that, I will never put the onus entirely on the consumer. Until these companies take some responsibility (and stop pushing the idea that this is somehow our fault) in an effective way, not just lip service and hand waving as they have done, the problem will continue regardless of how hard the consumer upholds their end of the bargain.

[Cthulhu_]

This isn't as big of an issue in developed countries, especially not if / when in addition to proper waste infrastructure there's people doing actual cleanup. There's systems to capture anything that does end up in the water stream anyway.

Most trash isn't "thrown" anywhere with a direct path to the ocean anyway.

[andrepd]

It most certainly would not; what a ridiculous concept. Plastic that is "properly" disposed of ends up in landfills or incinerated, only a minority is recycled. And the vast majority of plastic that is "improperly" disposed of is done so by companies, not individual people with their rubbish.

[actionfromafar]

Yes, but much of the ocean plastic is fishing nets and such.

[strogonoff]

That’s also true. The article states that those food and bev companies produce more plastic than household goods industry, but it does not rule out the amount of industrial plastic being bigger than both of those, which it realistically could be. That in turn does not mean food and bev companies should get a free pass, but it’s good to keep in mind.

[Euphorbium]

All of that gets solved by adding a deposit fee to packaging, that you get back when you return the packaging. This works in Europe.

[D_Alex]

People who downvoted this should consider what happens in other countries. See eg:

https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=41165fec71bc817d&sxsrf...

[sn9]

Using glass containers would get us 100% there regardless.

[baud147258]

Part of the issue is that rubbish in our bin (in the West) sometime ends up shipped across the world, in theory for 'recycling', but instead ends up dumped in another river...

Of course sometime I see littering in streets and parks, sometime literal feet away from bins and yeah, that's infuriating.

[gadders]

>>Companies like plastic because it means thicker margins for them

Consumers like plastic because it is better than the alternatives.

[strogonoff]

I have met people who like to drink from glass, and people who buy things in plastic bottles because that’s literally the only option if you want to enjoy a drink or even just clean water. These are the two (non mutually exclusive) categories of people that I normally meet. Do you often meet people who specifically like plastic, as opposed to tolerating it?

[eek04_]

I like plastic in that I prefer the lower cost and lower pollution and lower weight and lower breakability compared to glass.

[strogonoff]

I think usually a question about what you like does not call for an answer “I like X because it costs less”—that’s more of an economical preference. Either way, keep in mind that this lower cost for you in the moment, monetarily is in large part due to most governments presumably subsidising oil and due to negative environmental externalities both from plastic pollution and other uses of oil.

(I’m sure, like with any question, there will be many vocal commenters chiming in saying how they like plastic. All I can say, lucky you, and I am yet to meet any of you IRL!)

[Molitor5901]

Consumers like plastic because it is better than the alternatives.

They like it because it's cheap, both in manufacturing raw materials, production, and weight advantages in shipping.

[PittleyDunkin]

Nonsense. There are no alternatives consumers can buy. Try it and you'll find it's virtually impossible. A globalized economy has effectively destroyed the idea of voting with your wallet to reduce waste and production of trash.

[maeil]

For some products, sure. For many products, there's a brilliant alternative - buying second hand. Regardless of the material, this is by far the best way to reduce waste and production of waste, period.

[gadders]

They were all tried in the past - glass, metal etc - and were largely replaced.

If you think there is a new material out there that we are prevented from using, I'd be interested to hear what it is.

[darkwater]

They were replaced because the immediate cost for the selling company was way lower, because they just externalized the environmental cost on the the rest of the world.

But plastic was never "better". Remember that we had PVC all the places until we found out it was made with a carcinogen.

[strogonoff]

Some might say they were only replaced because it was more profitable for the manufacturers to use plastic (due to surplus of cheap oil), not for any actual qualities of the material as container for food and drinks and its environmental impact.

[PittleyDunkin]

Glass, metal, etc. You forgot paper, actually. All are better than the plastic crap forced down our throats.

[gadders]

Yes, paper straws are great.

[sn9]

You can get biodegradable straws that don't suck.

[paganel]

Without plastic modern consumerist society as we now experience it wouldn't be possible, as such, that party-goer from the movie The Graduate was very correct in the assumptions he made towards the end of the 1960s.

Which is to say, are you sure that the current powers that be are ready to withstand the backlash of their political constituencies once that consumerist policy is actively reversed?

[strogonoff]

The consumerist part of society may not be capable of generating as massive of a backlash as you might think. The key is in the name. :)

People will do the next convenient thing, whatever it is. Re-use containers made of sustainable materials, not buy something on a whim that they do not need, pay more for plastic as an indulgence (obviously it should not be banned, just taxed), etc.

Also, not a psychologist, but I reckon if you dig into what drives people to exhibit consumerism I suspect you’d find things like 1) wealth/status signaling, 2) virtue signaling, 3) just socially having a good time out with friends (shopping is common), 4) stress relief. None of that would be substantially hindered even if disposable plastic is banned outright (which is perhaps a questionable strategy), it would just find other avenues for expression.

Cases where plastic does enable some things that are otherwise infeasible I believe are numerous, but drink containers is not one of them.

[paganel]

That's the thing, plastic is not an "indulgence", is part of everyday life now, more than any other material.

[strogonoff]

I described the state of affairs that would follow a hypothetical taxation of plastic, not that plastic today is an indulgence. Today plastic is a necessity to buy a drink or even clean water in many places. That’s the problem.

[CaptainFever]

Can't you buy canned drinks?

[strogonoff]

The drink in every can is actually held in an inner plastic container, aluminium is only the outside. You can look up videos of people dissolving just the metal with drain cleaner and revealing the plastic “can”, or do it yourself (carefully). It’s thin and the amount of plastic is less, that’s true; but then I have never seen water sold in cans, for example.

[throwaway03312]

Recycling does help with certain types of plastic

I read numbers from Norway where it says that 1/3 of the plastic that is processed is recycled.

There are also incentives from the government that helps. They add a deposit to every soda bottle sold, that is given back immediately when the bottle is returned for recycling. This incentivises many to return it, because they would otherwise basically throw money in the trash. 92% of all bottles are returned for recycling. Everyone brings their empty bottles and cans to a grocery store, and use the money as partial payment for groceries or participate in a lottery where the profit is given to charity. All stores that sell soda products are required to also process the return, so they are using reverse vending machines to handle this automatically to save time (since the 70s)

Maybe some of the plastic will not be recycled but it will at least be destroyed and not just thrown in the ocean

[oblio]

The more I think about it, a lot of modern materials science seems to be just... bad.

Leaded gasoline, asbestos, plastics (micro plastics, the Great Garbage Patch, etc), teflon, etc.

We have some real winners in there but the constant push for growth leads to these wonder materials being used 1000 - 100 000 000x more than they should be used. Usually because of convenience and profit margins.

It's just that it's close to impossible to get rid of them. Plastic is in: paint, wall covering such as wallpaper, food packaging, waste disposable bags, cars, bikes, clothes, shoes, ...

It's basically impossible to find all natural products and they're also super expensive because, well, they are, but also because we're underinvesting in them.

[anonzzzies]

I try to get stuff in glass/aluminium bottles that I clean and reuse myself. It's not easy. Supermarkets is an immediate no-go (when I was young, our village supermarket sold Coke and Milk and other stuff from taps , so you just brought your own); now it's something impossible. But for local farmers, local springs etc it works well. Same for veg, fruit, meat, eggs etc; no plastic needed. Allows us to throw almost all our garbage in the compost heap, give to the chickens etc.

[eek04_]

Back in the day, my father worked as a researcher for a large, old dairy company. He was tasked with finding out what was environmentally friendly for packaging milk; whether they should start offering milk in washable glass bottles instead of their current cartons, for environmental reasons.

He found that the environmental impact created by the washing of the glass bottles was worse than the impact of the entire production and disposal cycle for the cartons. If you added in the production of the glass, the recycling of glass when it broke, and the extra impact from transport (less space due to not being able to pack as well, heavier) there was no competition at all - glass was way, way worse.

Plastic was a bit better than glass, and carton was the best available option. So they stayed with carton.

This was ~30 years ago, mind, so the equation may have changed. But I still find it important to check before deciding "Let's go glass" is the right option.

[anonzzzies]

Yes, but we aren't going back to this anyway. Also ; it's not only about drinks; everything comes packaged in plastic in supermarket. Now more reusable bags and paper bags are used over here, but you fill them with plastic nonetheless. It seems hard to believe that me being able to throw everything in the yard and it being gone vs throwing away bags of plastic is worse. And need to take into account that plastic recycling isn't great to begin with.

But agreed: all factors have to be taken into account. Maybe there are better plastics that are reusable easier and faster.

[Iulioh]

The only problem with plastic is when it does end up in the environment.

Burn it and the problem ia solved, at the end of the day it's still oil.

[actionfromafar]

There's the problem of plastic being literally poison, too.

[strogonoff]

I think that may be an exaggeration. Xenoestrogens like BPA are shown to be hormonal disruptors, there were some studies allegedly showing that people with IBD have more microplastic in their poop, etc., but it is difficult to exactly assess the impact from it accumulating in bodies.

Some plastics do meet the definition of literal poison, but those used in bottles do not seem to, and BPA is at worst supposedly to be classified as “substance of very high concern”. Can’t believe that I would write the above as good news, but there we go.

[actionfromafar]

Flame retardants from TVs ending up in recycled plastic being used for food storage, etc, etc.

It's a jungle out there and if not unregulated, then very much un-policed. PFAS was seen as completely benign for decades, turns it isn't and that is bio-accumulates.

Specific chemicals like BPA being banned in certain applications, only to be replaced by some other, very similar chemical, which then legislators play whack-a-mole with (or whack-a-sloth) very slowly, over decades.

Plus imports from China. (And some other countries, but hey, China has the volume. Shouldn't they care even just a little themselves too?)

Heck, toys from there still sometimes contain lead, which should really not be a thing in this day and age, but the fact that it sometimes still happen should indicate how little the producers and importers know or care.

[Iulioh]

My counterpoint is: Everything is poison.

Maybe we should just eat gold

[olejorgenb]

> Plastic recycles very poorly.

While I'm sure this is true in general, my impression is that the PET used in drink-bottles recycle well. For drink bottles I don't think we have a good option either? Glass is too heavy, aluminum is more energy intensive (I assume) even when it's recycled. Reusable bottles is unlikely to be realistic.

[strogonoff]

I’ve seen varying (lack of certainty is a sign in itself) estimates for how many times it can be recycled, from up to 2–3 to up to 7 times, where plastic closer to the end of that is only viable for uses like car tires, and read that PET leeches more plastic into drinks after being recycled[0]. In my mind, it does not pass the “recycles well” threshold if you compare it to materials like glass.

[0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030438942...

[olejorgenb]

Thanks for the paper. I've been wondering about how well we're actually able to filter/clean out contaminates in plastic recycling. Seems more research is needed, but it does look worrisome.

As the paper also mention - stricter rules for packaging designed for clean and easy recycling is a tool in the toolbox. They mentioned a study found that a majority of contaminant detected stemmed from labels, adhesive, etc.

There's also chemical recycling which I get the impression [1] can solve some of these challenges, but don't seem to be used much yet.

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221334372...

[abdullahkhalids]

Why is glass too heavy? For decades, when average income was lower, it was the standard container in which soft drinks came in. Its just that plastic is cheaper, and replaced glass. But surely richer people can afford glass now.

Interestingly, both have different environmental externalities, and not sure how those have changed over the decades and will in the future.

[olejorgenb]

"too heavy" is of course relative, but the addition cost/energy-use of the heavier transportation surely is non-trivial? If the bottles are to be reused, volume become an challenge.

I admit I don't have any references at hand, but I'm quite sure I've seen articles claiming plastic bottles "win" by a comfortable margin from an energy perspective.

Of course - energy is not everything.

[strogonoff]

I’ve seen analyses showing that aluminium actually is less energy-expensive than even plastic when it comes to transportation[0]. Initial aluminium is pricey, but recycled is cheap and unlike plastic it’s infinitely recyclable. But then yes, there is the inner layer of plastic in today’s aluminium cans, and proper glass beats both in terms of cleanness when it comes to the food it contains.

Additionally, the energy needed to produce even the initial, energy-intensive glass or aluminium could perhaps come from renewables and perhaps some emissions can be captured given enough motivation. (And when it comes to transportation perhaps today’s approach of lugging finished bottles around the globe can evolve towards moving source material and packaging it locally.)

The math is not straightforward.

[0] https://www.reuters.com/article/world/plastic-bottles-vs-alu...

[Molitor5901]

Even Legos will not use recycled plastic, although maybe that is changing?

Lego drops plans to make bricks from recycled plastic bottles https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/25/business/lego-abandons-re...

Lego plans to make half the plastic in bricks from renewable materials by 2026 https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/article/2024/aug/28...

[olejorgenb]

Collection rates in countries having an reverse-vending system is also high to very-high. 80-95% IIRC

[unwind]

Deposits on cans and PET bottles is well-established in Sweden, and rates seem to be around 90% now according to the responsible company [1], so yes.

[1]: https://pantamera.nu/en/private-citizen/facts--statistics/de...

[JoshTriplett]

Inconvenience is also very high, compared to "throw it in a recycling bin".

[rob74]

The inconvenience of throwing it in a recycling bin vs. just throwing it out of the window is also higher, so the next logical step is, I assume, to simply throw it out of the window?

[throwaway03312]

Several countries add a deposit to each bottle, so you would actually throw money away. It's not a big inconvenience to throw the bottles in a small bag and bring it with you to the machine at the grocery store, when you are going there anyway. 9 of 10 bottles are returned in Norway, so the system works.

[JoshTriplett]

> It's not a big inconvenience to throw the bottles in a small bag and bring it with you to the machine at the grocery store, when you are going there anyway.

1) "when you are going there anyway", which many people don't anymore.

2) Yes, it's absolutely a big inconvenience; I remember those days, and it took 15-30 minutes each time, leaving aside the inconvenience of bagging and lugging them, and the extreme unreliability of the machines. Not going to happen.

A recycling bin that gets picked up alongside the trash bin is far, far more convenient. I live in a state that has a can/bottle deposit, and despite that I just toss them in the recycling bin. If there wasn't a recycling bin or the recycling bin didn't allow them, they'd go in the trash bin, because life is too short to spend any of it feeding plastic bottles into a machine.

My state also incentivizes recycling in other ways: trash bins are small with high fees, recycling bins are huge and free.

[Ekaros]

Or huge sack and then use the newer models of machines that will automatically process whole sack of mixed pet and cans in a couple minutes.

[RobotToaster]

> Reusable bottles is unlikely to be realistic.

It used to be the norm in the UK for milk.

[Propelloni]

Agreed. Glass bottles were the absolute norm in Europe up to the late 1980s. A widespread re-use network for glas bottles existed (and still exists, esp. for beer bottles). Add on top a glass recycling system dor single-use and spent glass bottles and recovery rates were very good, albeit expensive in terms of transportation and energy use.

Independent of glass, according to Wikipedia over 75 % of all PET-bottles in the DACH region are also re-used before they are recycled (which can mean burning them). So, yes, it is absolutely realistic to have a system where the majority of bottles are reused.

[fmajid]

Not wishful thinking, a deliberate greenwashing scam. Aluminum is actually recycled, and should replace PET for all drinks packaging.

[lupusreal]

I still like glass, I don't care if it costs more to ship. Given the choice of spaghetti sauce in glass, plastic or metal cans, what do you pick? It's got to be glass. Beer? Cans are okay but I greatly prefer glass. Olives, why are the ones in cans always terrible? I don't know why but the ones in glass jars are the obvious choice.

[dagw]

Aluminum is actually recycled, and should replace PET for all drinks packaging

To the best of my knowledge, no one has made a resealable aluminium can. Until that is solved aluminium is inferior to PET for many use cases. In fact this is the primary reason I hardly ever buy soda in cans.

[strogonoff]

Screw-on-cap aluminium bottles and glass bottles both exist.

[dagw]

Never seen drinks sold in screw-on-cap aluminium bottles. In what country or what type of drinks use them?

[kalleboo]

In Japan they are very common for canned coffee, I dunno if it's because plastic bottles are unsuitable for warm drinks or something? (the drinks are kept hot ready to drink in the vending machine/store aisle)

https://dol.ismcdn.jp/mwimgs/d/e/-/img_def751445b616015211f3...

https://img.kurashinista.jp/get/2023/01/06/c4cc391408c0f5663...

https://cafe-no-chishiki.club/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/アルミ...

[strogonoff]

Seen them in probably every convenience store in South Korea and some other East/South East Asian countries. Coffee, juice.

Not sure if they have the inner plastic container aluminium cans have.

[thsyehdy3635]

Aluminum bottles exist.

[InDubioProRubio]

Recycling is busy work for activists who allow themselves to be behavioural hacked, so they do not actually change things.

[rightbyte]

Steel or aluminum cans might be better? At least they rust away and don't float.

I mean you could have a screw cap on a can too if that is important. Dunno why 33cl/50cl and whatever the oz. sizes are, are metal and plastic respectivly.

Using one time cannisters for water feels fundamentally unsubstainable.

[strogonoff]

I think “one time” is the key word here. Multiple use glass and metal containers were just fine before plastic; they can be the norm again.