[throwerofstone]

I personally believe the reason for non-western fiction gaining so much mainstream traction is quite simple: it provides a perspective almost entirely seperated from the reality most people face. Even simple scenarios, like running a small store or living life in a rural village, are so different from our usual experiences that it provides a way for our brains to release some of the pressure that comes from our busy day-to-day lives. The "isekai" genre (being transported to a different world, usually after dying an unfortune death) is an extreme take on this, where almost all connection to reality is removed entirely.

Compare those stories to most (not all) modern mainstream western fiction, and you'll find that a lot of it tends to take place within our existing world instead.

[bluefirebrand]

I was putting a lot of thought into this just yesterday, talking with some friends about the "Thing: Japan" phenomenon

It's important to recognize that any discussion about Japanese media outside of Japan is more or less only receiving the media that Japan is exporting to the world. Yes there are exceptions to this, people going out of their way to fan sub shows and such, but for the majority of Western people who are experiencing Japanese media it is very mainstream popular stuff like Studio Ghibli films and the most popular anime

With that said, I think the approach Japan has towards making media is very different than Western studios, especially when it comes to depictions of real world Japan

American TV and writing is very cynical about America. Consider the common depictions of rural America in most American media (rednecks, racist, boring, dirty) to the common depictions of rural Japan in Japanese media (idyllic, colorful, spiritual, friendly)

Even compare how a fictional Japanese city is depicted in the Yakuza game series (where you play a criminal doing crimes) and how a fictional American city is depicted in the Grand Theft Auto series (where you play a criminal doing crimes)

I really think Japanese creators like Japan more than American creators like America, and it shows through their work by smoothing over a lot of the rough edges of Japanese society

[ffsm8]

> Yes there are exceptions to this, people going out of their way to fan sub shows and such,

I agree that the well known works are usually the better productions, but that detail is wrong. Crunchyroll puts out almost everything that's currently being released, including complete nonsense like reincarnated as a vending machine

And while I'd agree that most Japanese authors seem to have gigantic pride for their culture, it does get old because it's become such a trope to introduce Japanese culture/food as the best thing ever created...

I mean I'm more likely to watch an anime then the woke garbage the west is currently producing, but I think the main reason is because our own productions have so massively dropped in quality.

There just hasn't been another series such as Dexter, Breaking Bad etc in over 10 yrs now... If there were, I think anime would be a lot less relevant right now.

[bluefirebrand]

> I agree that the well known works are usually the better productions, but that detail is wrong. Crunchyroll puts out almost everything that's currently being released

Japan produces a lot more media than just anime, the west does not see most of it. When was the last time you saw a live action Japanese procedural crime show localized to English? Or really any live action Japanese shows that aren't something like Kamen Rider or Godzilla?

Also, arguably the only reason Crunchyroll even exists today is because of dedicated fan subs making Japanese media available for decades

[ffsm8]

That's true, my mind just instantly jumped to anime because of the word fansub.

I think most people would also agree that anime, manga (and games as a distant third) are the main cultural exports of Japan, while life action movies/series are often centered around American productions

[bluefirebrand]

Yeah, which is why in my original post I wrote:

"It's important to recognize that any discussion about Japanese media outside of Japan is more or less only receiving the media that Japan is exporting to the world"

Which is a really just a long winded way of saying "The majority Japanese media we are exposed to is anime, manga and games"

[plorkyeran]

Arguably? Crunchyroll started as a pirate streaming site that hosted fansubs before they went legit.

[Jensson]

Biggest reason is simply quantity, Japan churns out hundreds of animated stories from new authors every year, the west do barely anything in comparison.

When you create that much content some of them do become hits, and it also encourages more authors to create more content, while western studios only invests in franchises they can control themselves to create another marvel, while Japan just churns out content while the authors retain the rights.

Edit: Many western authors writes about other worlds etc, they just don't get anything animated since it is so hard to get anyone to invest in your story.

[TheAceOfHearts]

There seems to be some progress in the western animation scene. Dungeon Crawler Carl and Cradle are both getting animated adaptations.

The biggest tragedy is that even incredibly popular authors like Brandon Sanderson don't get a chance of having their own animated series. Mistborn would work perfectly as an anime adaptation.

Marvel and DC historically created way too much consolidation which really limited creative output. And by this point people seem pretty fed up with 'capeshit'. Western comics are also incredibly hostile towards new readers, especially when compared to managa where you can just pick up the story and binge read the whole thing without having to pick up a million other things.

[kombookcha]

>Western comics are also incredibly hostile towards new readers

I agree with this if we are talking American superhero comics, but the European scene is decidedly different. Franco-Belgian comics are usually very pick-up-and-go, as are a great many of the homegrown UK ones. I think we're coming off a decade-ish where the massive investment in Marvel/DC 'verses have been eating up all the oxygen in the room for large comic book adaptions. Or just for general public consciousness attention for comics.

I am pretty confident that it's gonna turn around, but it might take a while on the large scale projects.

[havblue]

Things have definitely come a long way since the nineties where you would read a book or comic and wonder about how great it will be when the property will get adapted and reach a wider audience. It's kind of like listening to a band before they became popular or maybe rain on Arrakis. We got what we wanted and the thing that we anticipated isn't nearly as special anymore. Dinniman and Brandon Sanderson definitely deserve their wider audiences but it just seems anticlimactic as these shows and movies inevitably roll out.

[cgriswald]

Just a handful of Western comics you can pick up and read today:

The Sandman (Netflix show), The Best We Could Do, Pride of Baghdad, Superman American Alien, Superman Red Son (animated), I Hate Fairyland, Bone, Epileptic, Paper Girls (turned into an live action show), Monstress, Saga, The Watchmen (turned into a terrible movie, an adaptation show, and an animated show), Stumptown (also got a show I believe), Daytripper, Maus, Berlin…

[anthk]

>Western.

America is not the whole West, HN readers often forget it. Ditto with thinking on "Dragon Ball in the West" ended in the 00's when we the Europead finished it on mid 90's and began to watch Dragon Ball GT in 1999.

[dfxm12]

Western comics are also incredibly hostile towards new readers

In my experience, it is easy to just pick up a trade paperback, one shot, subscribe to a limited series, etc. Even if you want to just jump in to an ongoing series, the writing and storylines are simple enough that you can usually pick it up in a few issues or just wait for a new arc.

[Cthulhu_]

I'm not at all involved in the industry so here's an armchair opinion; western animation is too expensive for anything but guaranteed hits or kid's shows. Arcane is one of the best western animations of today, but it cost $250 million for just two seasons.

Wages in Japan for animators are much lower, if not exploitative.

[motogpjimbo]

The Cradle adaptation is only an animatic, sadly. Best case scenario is that it generates enough buzz for a Netflix or an Amazon to pick it up for a full series, but then I'd be worried it would get butchered like Rings of Power or Wheel of Time have been.

[corimaith]

None of the japanese literature in this article is being adapted into animation, we're talking about literary fiction here as opposed to more pop fiction like light novels which exist more as mass commercial enterprises.

[Jensson]

Anime gets people started, then they start reading other things from Japan. The west doesn't have such a pipeline to make casual persons into readers.

Edit: Anyway, the culture of celebrating authors in general rather than trying to create franchises helps a lot for all sorts of books.

[corimaith]

No, I don't think somebody getting into Re-Zero is going to start reading VNs like Umineko someday, let alone progress to literature, in the same way as how somebody watching the MCU is unlikely to progress to Infinite Jest.

Geographical distinctions don't really make sense in deciding preference, you start with genre elements and pick from there, regardless if it's Western or Japanese. Ignoring a work because it comes from X country would just be bizarre. As a sci-fi or fantasy fan I don't make distinctions between Japanese or Korean or Western works, nor do I see other fans doing so. For example, I wouldn't be comparing Satoshi Hase's Beatless in the context of "Japanese" works, I'd be comparing it to other AI works. The only limiting factor is translation.

But cross-genre pollination doesn't really happen nowadays, most shounen readers will never go or even avoid mecha, and so forth. Otaku culture especially is much more fragmented today than in the early 2010s.

[Elvie]

I agree with your points, but to be honest Bungo Stray Dogs got me interested in Osamu Dasai and Akutagawa...

[Jensson]

> No, I don't think somebody getting into Re-Zero is going to start reading VNs like Umineko someday

You realize Umeniko got an anime? Yes, some of the people who watched that anime probably went to read the books, is that really so hard to believe? Authors who got their works animated see a lot more book sales as well. Then as they read those books they might want more so they look for adjacent books, fueling the entire industry.

[corimaith]

Well, the Umineko anime was pretty bad... But I illustrated the disprecancy between the VN culture and larger Anime culture for reason that the VN subculture is already very close to Anime subculture yet receives much less attention. Of course a few individuals can "graduate", but we can observe statistically most don't. Majority of AoT fans aren't going into MuvLuv.

Contemporary Literary Fiction as in the article is separated by far more cultural layers, there is virtually no cross pollination with the otaku subculture. You are far more likely to get someone who reads Westen literature to expand to Japanese works than an otaku to do so.

[Jensson]

> None of the japanese literature in this article is being adapted into animation

This is wrong btw, I looked up one and "Makato Shinkai’s She and Her Cat" was an anime. This is about animes as well, not just books.

[Elvie]

Did you even read the article?

churn animated stories? WTF has that do do with an article about fiction books - NOT manga? or even anime?

[Jensson]

You realize most of those stories were originally books? They turn books to mangas and then to animes.

[Elvie]

No, not all start as light novels. In many cases the light novels come afterwards as a way to capitalise (eg Demon Slayer, the manga finished a while ago, so while the anime is still running light novels are coming out).

Apothecary Diaries started as a light novel, but JJK, AoT and many others start as Manga

[Jensson]

Also, the article is about animes as well. Makato Shinkai’s She and Her Cat is an anime, not a book, for example. It talks a lot about books, but it isn't only about books. I thought that was obvious.

> No, not all start as light novels

Many are though, many of the animes that came out for a few years I had already read the LN for. That so many novels becomes animes is likely a big reason why there are so many novels being written along those styles.

[resoluteteeth]

> The "isekai" genre (being transported to a different world, usually after dying an unfortune death) is an extreme take on this, where almost all connection to reality is removed entirely.

> Compare those stories to most (not all) modern mainstream western fiction, and you'll find that a lot of it tends to take place within our existing world instead

When people draw conclusions like this it often seems like they're making apples to oranges comparisons. Most "isekai" stuff is light novels. The appropriate comparison with stuff published in the US would might be YA books which also have lots of stuff that does not "take place within our existing world".

I think there might be some confusion about how common different types of fiction are in Japan because people are comparing US literary fiction with Japanese genre fiction because Japanese "pure literature" fiction doesn't tend to receive attention in the US, but in reality I'm not sure the US and Japanese fiction markets are that different overall.

[corimaith]

This article is directly talking about Japanese pure literature, I think some posters just took off from the title only?

You're right that if we are comparing the wider body, there isn't really a distinction between "Western" or "Japanese", at least for enthusiasts, what matters alot more are the individual authors.

[Jensson]

> This article is directly talking about Japanese pure literature,

No it isn't, did you even read it? It mentions animes as well, not all of the works mentioned are books.

Makato Shinkai’s She and Her Cat is an anime, not a book, for example.

Edit: They adapted that anime to a book, but a book adapted from an anime is hardly "pure literature", it is definitely pop literature.

[cgriswald]

The article is referring to the recently released book and calls She and Her Cat a book the only two times it references it.

[pjc50]

Literary fiction is a genre with tropes of its own. It's just one that its fans get extremely snobby about. But doesn't Murakami count as literary fiction?

[TheAceOfHearts]

There's a ton of great western fiction that does the same thing, it's just not usually gonna show up on traditional channels. Heck, that's not even entirely true since Travis Baldree's slice of life Legends & Lattes won Nebula and Hugo awards last year.

If you go on Royal Road there's tons of great fantasy stories. The West is just missing the Japanaese pipeline of web serials -> light novel -> manga -> anime -> live action movie. Although there's companies like WebToons that seem to be trying to get such a pipeline going by making comics based on popular western web serials.

I've read my fair share of both Western and Japanese light novels, and you can definitely find quality content everywhere. In Japan they just do a better job at capitalizing on success by giving every slightly popular light novel series a try with an anime season or two. As someone who usually checks out 1 or 2 episodes of most seasonal anime, I can tell you that most of it ends up being barely memorable slop though.

It's worth noting that the West seems to be catching up, a few popular series are getting animated series. Two big ones that come to mind are Cradle by Will Wight, and Dungeon Crawler Carl by Matt Dinniman.

[numpad0]

I think there are also issues of scale of investment and revenue splits - I can't find right now, but there was a rant tweet from a Japanese comic author that apparent typical compensation for webtoons was below labor cost of his team by couple digits, and I also remember seeing similar rants on topic of AI training materials that were off by even larger magnitudes(like $.25 per dozen images one-time vs $1k per use recurring).

So authors seem to be getting paid more, and that leads to an obvious question of how. One possible answer to that is maybe Japanese media contents - be it images or anime or light novel or classical novel - are still heavily subsidized by its strong and isolate domestic consumption. Average household expenditure on reading is about $120 per year in US and $325 in Japan[1], which IMO roughly coincide with this hypothesis.

If there actually is such a situation... maybe what's missing in Western media is just accelerated consumption. It's weird to think that Americans and Europeans might not be consuming enough media, but that could be it.

1: at current rate of 150 yen/dollar; raw value is 50k yen or ~1% average yearly income

[plorkyeran]

A sort of joke is that many anime episodes are a 30 minute ad for the soundtrack CD. If you look at the anime by itself the numbers very clearly make no sense, but shows are financed by integrated production companies that make their money on side merchandise.

[NoboruWataya]

Murakami's works, at least, feel quite westernised. They are filled with references to western music and other art, the protagonists generally have jobs that are also common in the west, and (not sure whether this is down to Murakami or his translator) the characters always sound very American in dialogue. Nothing about them feels particularly alien to a western reader, except the surrealism itself (and, perhaps, certain aspects of his portrayal of women that is sometimes considered problematic in the west).

[MilanTodorovic]

He provides a portal to the west as a Japanese person would imagined it to be, akin to an otaku romanticizing japanise culture.

[GGfpc]

To be fair, Japan is westernized

[evanjrowley]

The point you make here is exactly why I often prefer to watch *anime. I think it also applies to my preferences for British period pieces.

As an American, British period pieces[0][1][2] obviously present a different world. I imagine they are more palatable to someone in my demographic because we are relatively disconnected from British culture, society, and history. Recently I became aware of the UK's New Man / New Lad gender stereotypes[3] and realized that the main characters of these shows fit. As a result of this awareness, I can no longer enjoy these shows without being reminded of cultural conflicts of the present day. A story about a social issue set in the 1960s used to be just that, but now it's more apparent to me that the narratives are meant to shape present-day perception of these issues.

It was nice not being reminded of the political struggles we face on a daily basis. Now I'm unsure if media consumers who lack this awareness are the lucky ones or the sheep. I wonder if British people have always felt this way about these shows and I'm only just catching up now. I also wonder if this dynamic is mutual with other cultures - for example, is Rings of Power considered non-controversial in SE Asia due to the cultural disconnect?

* My preference for anime has waned as certain tropes have become quite overused and tiresome.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foyle%27s_War

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inspector_George_Gently

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midsomer_Murders

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Man_(gender_stereotype)#

[rgrieselhuber]

There does seem to be a unique form of escapism in the aesthetics. I often think of it when I think about the jazz cafe phenomenon that is popular in Japan. It's warm and cozy but it can also be a cozy sterility (but hey we have cats!) that a lot of societies seem to be going through now (in the West as well). A sleepy existential crisis that plays itself out in quotidian surrealism. It's not unpleasant but also feels somehow like a miss on both an individual and civilizational level.

[torginus]

Honestly I don't remember any time when Japanese manga/anime/video games weren't popular.

90s kids grew up watching Dragon Ball & playing Metal Gear Solid and Super Mario 64.

[vundercind]

Video games, yes, but anime (aside from a couple things that played on normal channels, like dragon ball—seeking out more, though...) and especially manga were things only certain kinds of dorks enjoyed, among those whose high school years were in the '90s and '00s. Toward the veeeeery end of the '00s (as the kids right behind that group started reaching high school) it was changing, and what's remarkable now is how entirely normal it is, even manga. It's no longer unusual for the popular kids to like it.

It was kinda hard to even get anime in that time period, if it wasn't one of the few played on TV. Hell, even US TV shows had only recently started coming out as complete DVD sets, most still weren't available that way, and publishers were all over the place on what they thought a season was worth. You pretty much had to be into Internet piracy to be a fan, or know someone who was and would get stuff for you.

[anthk]

Maybe in the US, Europe has been into manga since the 80's.

[vundercind]

Ah, yeah, US perspective for sure.

[some_random]

I think most attempts to rationalize why media from an entire culture is popular are going to fall short, and while this is better reasoning that usual it's still overthinking the problem. At the end of the day, every culture produces media, some percentage of that is going to be really good, and sometimes other groups end up really enjoying it because of quality and novelty.