[release-object]

I would prefer to WFH 100%.

However I’m a team lead. And no matter what I try I can’t train my juniors as quickly remotely.

My seniors and I can show them how to work, and solve problems so much faster on-site. We catch bad habits sooner and in-still the teams approach to working via example. Which so far I’ve found hardest to replicate remotely.

Yes you can pass skills on remotely. But many people aren’t willing to spent extended periods on a call. And it is time people need more than anything else at the start of their career.

Many juniors - understandably - don’t know what skills they are lacking. And those that do don’t know which to focus on first. Only 10/20% have the right personality type to self-source these skills independently. They need our help. Just as we needed the previous generations help. And to provide that we need to really get to know them.

[adamtaylor_13]

Difficulty training juniors is easily the weakest argument I’ve heard related to RTO.

I’ve trained dozens of people remotely and helped them level up. Sure it’s not the most *effective*, but given the immense benefits of WFH, I have no problem sacrificing the ease of my job so that my juniors can have a better life.

[susodapop]

It also doesn't need to be all-or-nothing. I'm a "full-time" WFH team-lead. But when I'm onboarding a new engineer, I travel to wherever they are and we share an office for a couple weeks while I bring them up-to-speed. After that point, they can WFH or come into the office to suit their preference.

While this is less convenient for me (a fact which is reflected in my compensation), it flattens the onboarding curve without requiring a complete RTO for everyone.

[release-object]

+1. Working where we are most effective, at any given time, is the best defence against a mandated RTO.

[release-object]

> Sure it’s not the most effective

And this is the problem. I want to work from home full time. But until I can replicate all of the benefits remotely I will continue with hybrid.

This is a very emotive subject. The only way we are going to translation to a fully remote future is by accepting the limitions of remote. And then fixing them.

[christhecaribou]

If you cannot train your juniors up remotely, that’s a management failing. Why punish them for that?

In a world with any worker’s rights, you wouldn’t be able to.

[the_snooze]

>If you cannot train your juniors up remotely, that’s a management failing. Why punish them for that?

That's an unnecessarily aggressive and uncharitable read of the situation. While it may be possible to train up juniors remotely, many people (myself included) have given it a serious try and have found it far too risky to be worth the effort. An intellectually honest manager will say "it's not for me, I can't do it," and their higher-ups have to make a value judgment about whether it's worth it to force them into a shape that they're not, or accept that the tried-and-true method of socializing juniors in-person is still valid.

If you're honestly curious as to why it's so hard, my experience is that it's a socialization task: you have to make the junior folks feel like they're part of the team and have standing to ask questions. That's really hard to do when everyone is just words on a screen, or occasionally floating heads on a video chat. Embodied communication has something that gets lost online.

[brians]

It’s a management limit. I’m not sure it’s a failing. I’m a pretty good manager and I’ve worked with some great ones. All of us are better with access to frequent informal communication, shared meals, and walking.

This isn’t about punishment: it’s about how we organize ourselves if we want to create together. I write LARPs collaboratively, and I play tabletop RPGs, too—and those are more fun and more productive and creative in person.

[susodapop]

> All of us are better with access to frequent informal communication, shared meals, and walking.

Back when I was healthy, I would have agreed with this. Nowadays, chronic illness forestalls shared meals or casual walks. Informal communication doesn't need to be over the top of a cubicle wall. It can be as simple as switching from Slack to Signal/Whatsapp/iMessage.

As with most things, cohesive dynamics are achieved by working with the tools and limitations that _exist_ rather than assuming everyone can relate in the same way. If I worked on a team where all the above were socially expected, I'd feel excluded and probably leave.

It's perfectly fine to acknowledge that _you_ require those walks and meals to lead effectively. And I'm sure that your non-handicapped team members appreciate it as well.

The rest of us, however, still have a lot to contribute and shouldn't be implicitly (yes) punished for not fitting into that mold. We're good engineers and good colleagues.

[christhecaribou]

You have zero data to support that. It’s just your gut. Forgive me for not believing in your gut.

[ngrilly]

Remote work is about collaboration. That requires an effort from both sides to make it work. For sure, management has a huge responsibility. But putting every failure on management is overly simplistic.

[christhecaribou]

Pinning the failure of management to manage remote workers on management? I think that’s appropriate.

[ngrilly]

You’re now making a point which is different from the comment I replied to.

[release-object]

I’m not punishing them. I am literally commuting a couple of hours a day to help my juniors. I don’t want to. But I do want them to grow in their roles. And feel like a full member of the team, as quickly as possible.

I will accept that some of my senior team feel punished. They don’t need to come in for their own careers. They’re past that point. But part of being a senior is passing your skills along. And upskilling others.

[CrimsonRain]

Clearly you have zero idea about remote working and remote management. I've been working 15 years remote and 5 years manage/mentoring. The junior is as much as, if not more, responsible for the growth as the manager/mentor is responsible. You can drag a horse to river but can't make it drink and all that.

Workers have all the right they need.

Don't like RTO? Leave, find a job which allows WFH or go start your own company.

[closeparen]

When’s the last time a junior engineer was hired at a US tech office? Onboarding hasn’t been a thing for us in the Bay Area since ZIRP.