[insane_dreamer]

This is a critical point. There seems to be an obsession with “making money so you can retire early” and then what? Your children are grown and left home, you’ve often sacrificed them as well as your own physical and mental health, you don’t have the energy you had in your youth, for what? So you can play golf with other retirees? Or maybe you saved up enough that you can invest in a new startup. Okay fine but that’s not retirement, in fact it may be more work.

[rachofsunshine]

It's odd to me that people think the value in excess wealth is just living on a beach somewhere.

The value in excess wealth is what you can do with it. You can find a person in need and hand them a thousand dollars for fun. You can fund some program your town needs. You can build a "third space" for your community. There's so much you can do with wealth that isn't just hoarding it!

Personally, my goal is to have enough money to buy a giant mansion on the edge of some town and be the weird rich lady you can go to with your problems. If I get richer than that, great! It'll be a bigger mansion and a bigger town. But if you gave me a billion dollars tomorrow, I'd just use it to be a bigger weird rich lady you can go to with your problems.

[insane_dreamer]

You're not considering the opportunity cost to get that wealth. Sometimes you may be lucky enough that there is very little opportunity cost. But most of the time it's considerable.

> be the weird rich lady you can go to with your problems

that's great; but unfortunately in society at large, the people with wealth and the people who you can approach with your problems make a Venn diagram with little overlap

I've found that in most cases, people tend to become more selfish as they get more money, not less selfish. (Not talking about you, just commenting on society.)

[rachofsunshine]

I agree completely. But I feel like saying "if I ever get any wealth or power I'll just be as bad as the people who already have it" is just throwing in the towel. You might as well try!

[hnthrowaway6543]

As with every other person who has wealth, you'd quickly find that the people who go to you with their problems are the ones whose problems would be magically solved if you only gave them a small investment of $10k, maybe $100k if they're bold and daring, but don't worry, they'll pay you back with interest after their business takes off.

Outside of people who crave the fame and/or flaunt their wealth to promote themselves (e.g. Michael Bloomberg), wealthy people do not advertise that they are wealthy, because doing so invites a lot of unwanted attention.

[thanksgiving]

> The value in excess wealth is what you can do with it. You can find a person in need and hand them a thousand dollars for fun. You can fund some program your town needs. You can build a "third space" for your community. There's so much you can do with wealth that isn't just hoarding it!

Thank you for your kindness. However, you can't become and definitely won't stay a billionaire if you give away your money.

In practical terms, you don't want strangers in your home. There are some bad people in this world. https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/24vo34/whats_the...

[lazyasciiart]

Yea. The world is full of people who have spare money and bedrooms and won’t use it to help others. Those are the bad people.

[toomuchtodo]

Wealth is a tool. To stay wealthy is an inefficient use of capital considering time value. The only people who want to stay billionaires are those who crave the power and status it brings.

See: MacKenzie Scott

https://www.library.hbs.edu/working-knowledge/mackenzie-scot...

[insane_dreamer]

Mackenzie Scott is a wonderful, but extremely rare, example.

[fragmede]

Who wants to stay a billionaire? You can't take it with you, and that's an unfathomable amount of money for a single person to have. At a flat 5 percent interest per year, that's $50 million a year, or just under a million per week, or $137k/day. per day! You could fund a third space for quite a while on that and still never run out of money after your ordinary life expenses were paid. Ballooning life costs can still add up as jets and yachts get expensive, but that's still an insane amount of money.

On 50 million a year, you could give out 49,000 homeless people to give $1,000 to every year, and still have a million dollars to spend, without touching your principle. Could you even find 134 homeless people every day to give $1,000 to?

The goal is to Die with Zero, as written by Bill Perkins, and while you may not want to literally do that, it's still a good book to read to get you thinking about how to spend your money.

[rachofsunshine]

> However, you can't become and definitely won't stay a billionaire if you give away your money.

It's very possible that I won't, no. But I also don't think I'm naive.

I run a company. I founded it without funding from venture capitalists, so that no one will ever be able to tell me to sell anyone out. One of the first things I wrote down was that I would never lie, mislead, or otherwise tell anything less than the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And right now, my company is functioning and profitable, while doing - at least as far as I can tell - no harm to anyone.

Yeah, being a horrible human being means you're free to do everything to your game-theoretic advantage. But you can choose not to do that. You can win without choosing to do that. You just have to know, crystal clear, from day one, that you'd rather make one million dollars ethically than two million dollars unethically.

Similarly, will people sometimes abuse your kindness? Yeah, sure. But you can give your kindness knowing that that's part of the cost of doing business - especially if you're successful enough that you can afford the loss.

You ever read Les Miserables? There's a scene where Jean Valjean, who has been taken in briefly by a kindly bishop, steals some of his valuables out of desperation. He's caught by the police, who arrest him and bring him back:

  “Ah! here you are!” [the Bishop] exclaimed, looking at Jean Valjean. “I am glad
  to see you. Well, but how is this? I gave you the candlesticks too,
  which are of silver like the rest, and for which you can certainly get
  two hundred francs. Why did you not carry them away with your forks and
  spoons?”

  Jean Valjean opened his eyes wide, and stared at the venerable Bishop
  with an expression which no human tongue can render any account of.

  “Monseigneur,” said the brigadier of gendarmes, “so what this man said
  is true, then? We came across him. He was walking like a man who is
  running away. We stopped him to look into the matter. He had this
  silver—”

  “And he told you,” interposed the Bishop with a smile, “that it had
  been given to him by a kind old fellow of a priest with whom he had
  passed the night? I see how the matter stands. And you have brought him
  back here? It is a mistake.”

  “In that case,” replied the brigadier, “we can let him go?”

  “Certainly,” replied the Bishop.

  The gendarmes released Jean Valjean, who recoiled.

  “Is it true that I am to be released?” he said, in an almost
  inarticulate voice, and as though he were talking in his sleep.

  “Yes, thou art released; dost thou not understand?” said one of the
  gendarmes.

  “My friend,” resumed the Bishop, “before you go, here are your
  candlesticks. Take them.”

  He stepped to the chimney-piece, took the two silver candlesticks, and
  brought them to Jean Valjean. The two women looked on without uttering
  a word, without a gesture, without a look which could disconcert the
  Bishop.

  Jean Valjean was trembling in every limb. He took the two candlesticks
  mechanically, and with a bewildered air.

  “Now,” said the Bishop, “go in peace. By the way, when you return, my
  friend, it is not necessary to pass through the garden. You can always
  enter and depart through the street door. It is never fastened with
  anything but a latch, either by day or by night.”

  Then, turning to the gendarmes:—

  “You may retire, gentlemen.”

  The gendarmes retired.

  Jean Valjean was like a man on the point of fainting.

  The Bishop drew near to him, and said in a low voice:—

  “Do not forget, never forget, that you have promised to use this money
  in becoming an honest man.”

  Jean Valjean, who had no recollection of ever having promised anything,
  remained speechless. The Bishop had emphasized the words when he
  uttered them. He resumed with solemnity:—

  “Jean Valjean, my brother, you no longer belong to evil, but to good.
  It is your soul that I buy from you; I withdraw it from black thoughts
  and the spirit of perdition, and I give it to God.”

[insane_dreamer]

One of my favorite passages in one of my all time favorite books

[grogenaut]

The "then what" is important to figure out and maybe figure out earlier rather than later. Some people don't have an "then what" other than working, they find fulfilment that way, that's fine.

I'm 47 and I'm teasing out what retirement would look like after seeing many people talk about their issues in retiring early and being bored as hell (and knowing many older folks with those problems).

I have a model in my mother who put my dad through law school and then he put her through MBA school, which she didn't actually use. She raised us until my dad passed young leaving her retirement level funds, She then did volunteer jobs like running part of the gift shop at the botanical garden (which had the great side benefit of taking lunch / strolling the botanical garden 4 days a week) and the tougher but much more rewarding Court Appointed Special Advocate work she did where you are essentially stand in legal guardian for children. She had 3 families of children she was working with. Very rewarding and very heart breaking work. Don't get me wrong she also took vacations, bridge, movie club, scuba, painting, sung in choir (I have several official photos of her standing right behind the pope in rome singing which my catholic friends love [my episcopal mom has spent more time with the pope than you have]). Worked her butt off (literally) to be able to handle Machu Pichu for her 70th. Definitely lived a full interesting life, not just on the beach. At her remembrance relatives and friends were a bit shocked at all of the photos I had on the slide show of the things she'd done / places she'd been.

Golf with friends is definitely fun and relaxing and can be done well into your later years, don't knock it but it's not the only thing you'll do. Getting drunk on the beach all the time also becomes harder and not as fun as you get older for many people. But your friends likely don't have all that free time.

One interesting thing I've found recently is some volunteer work in the BLS realm (basic life saving / rescue). Ski Patrol / SAR is an interesting combination of weekend outdoor hobby with goals. And seems to have roles as you age (usually in organizing) though that means you have to deal with older bureaucratic know it alls. But they also organize everything you just show up and do. Folks being pretty active well into their 80s (could be survivor bias).

[insane_dreamer]

All fair points.

There's a lot you can do, especially to use your resources to help others, as your mother did, while also enjoying life.

I wasn't saying early retirement is bad; I'd love to do it myself. But rather the question is, what am I willing to give up to achieve that goal. What is the opportunity cost. Maybe you're lucky and there's hardly any. But often it's your children who pay the price (as in the comment I was replying to). Or you yourself pay the price with suffering from significant stress, anxiety and unhappiness.

Why not enjoy life earlier, and especially with your children, and then just work longer.

I've turned down more money because I knew that it came with strings attached of more work and stress, and I didn't want that for myself or my family whom it would most certainly impact. So, I'll have less money for retirement and I'll have to work a few years longer. But I want to be happy _now_ not just when I'm old.

[grogenaut]

I guess I've been lucky in that the more money didn't cause more stress, about the same actually. And my kid is out of college now tho living with us. So I have loads of free time. Was talking with a former coworker this week who has 6 and 8 year old and is currently taking a work break. We realized that I have about as much free time as he does. So yes I'm talking from a place of privilege. And fair on the tradeoffs.

My point was more about prompting people to start thinking about what they'd want to do in retirement if they even retired. I know quite a few people who don't know what they'd do, so it defintitely seems like a thing you need to figure out. Not a pool to jump into all at once one day.

For me I think it also helps me de-stress the idea of retirement, easing. into it.

[bdangubic]

early retirement is all about being happy now-ish vs. when you are old!

but if price to pay for early retirement is stress/anxiety/unhappiness and ESPECIALLY less time with your children (especially before puberty) no early retirement is worth it

[bdangubic]

retiring early is not a goal only if you define your life through work. there are MILLION other things to do besides “playing golf with other retirees” (though that’s definitely more fun that working in a cubicle.

if your work defines you - great, keep on trucking. but having financial means to not have to work at early age (while you are still youngish and healthy) is probably one of the biggest goals any human on Earth can achieve

[nuancebydefault]

> having financial means to not have to work at early age (while you are still youngish and healthy) is probably one of the biggest goals any human on Earth can achieve

I'd rather just do a job i like to do until i am not able to do it anymore.

I know people who are old and do charity work, who i envy. They could as well be doing half time paid work, but for them work is work, it's not so much about money or early retirement. It's about the contentment of doing something useful together with others.

[bdangubic]

sounds like your work is invaluable part of your life - absolutely nothing wrong with that. as bumpersticker say “I’d rather be fishing/golfing/boating/…”

[nuancebydefault]

I like fishing/golfing/boating... for a week. Have you tried it for longer?

[bdangubic]

I am not there yet to retire, few more years but there are … after fishing/golfing/boating so not planning to do just that… I am little stunned honestly we are discussing whether having financial means to not have to get up in the morning and stare at screens (best case scenario vs other professions) is not something most humans would want to achieve…

[nuancebydefault]

I must say I exaggerated a bit. My work involves staring at screens a lot as well and it is not always pleasant. Luckily there's also the brainstorming, experimenting with equipment and working together with other people.

The ideal job however for me would be a mix of being a tutor, experimenting, reading up on new ideas or technologies and fixing problems, in a part time regime. The free time can then be spent on woodworking, gardening, sports, family. I haven't attained that exactly but i'm actually not super far off.

My point being, it does not have to be black and white, work vs retirement. You can do part time work that you like for a very long time and have fulfillment.

[anonzzzies]

Exactly; it's why I worked hard during and after uni so I could retire young. That was 25 years ago; I am working more than ever now. But only on whatever I want / like to do. That happens to make money as people want to buy it.

[chr1]

Another possible solution to the situation you describe is when grandparents are taking care of children and young people work as much as they can. There is a theory that people evolved to live past reproductive years, because it allowed to raise more children.