[wannacboatmovie]

Well for starters, they stopped providing any updates for many perfectly functional Intel Macs years ago for no other reason than planned obsolescence. A side effect of the "they make both the hardware and software that's why it's better" paradigm.

Things like OpenCore Legacy Patcher prove it's possible; they just don't want to.

I don't think anyone feels entitled to new features in perpetuity. Security updates only would be fine thank you.

Don't tell me the richest company in the world can't pay for a couple of developers who just want to rest and vest to take care of and test the legacy platforms. A cushy job and you keep the customers happy.

Ironically the best way to stay safe on these computers is to install Windows or Linux.

[StressedDev]

Software needs longer support life cycles in general. I find it frustrating that organizations do not support operating systems, hardware, and applications for at least 10 years. Note Apple is one of the better organizations on this. Consumer router companies are notorious for shipping unpatched software. Here is what I would like to see:

1. All hardware and software should come with a highly visible end of support date.

2. All hardware and software should notify people when it is no longer receiving security patches. It should also explain to users why running unpatched software or hardware is dangerous.

[pjmlp]

Which is why having cybersecurity laws and liability in computing is so relevant.

[wannacboatmovie]

To my knowledge Apple has never published EOL or support dates in the future. Someone correct me if something has changed in the last few years.

[wtallis]

https://support.apple.com/en-us/102772 outlines "vintage" and "obsolete" status for hardware products, with a few exceptions. I'm not aware of a similarly straightforward criteria or comprehensive list for software support periods.

[microtonal]

Samsung nowadays tells you ahead of time how long a phone will get major updates and security updates. I think it's the same with Google Pixel. And they have a list of models and their release schedules:

https://security.samsungmobile.com/workScope.smsb

My qualm with them is though that not all devices are updated at the same time (like iOS/iPadOS/macOS). One phone may get an update the 10th of the month, while another only gets it the 30th. As a result, there is often quite a large window where vulnerabilities are known, but not yet patched (it's even worse with the cheap models that only get quarterly updates).

[philistine]

That list relates strictly to hardware repairs. Vintage macs have often been fully supported software-wise.

[wtallis]

Yes, I'm fully aware that the support article I linked to is specifically about hardware support—that's why I mentioned that there isn't a similar list for software support.

[wannacboatmovie]

The issue with passing off a list of vintage products as some kind of past tense support schedule is by definition products become vintage when they are added to the list at some arbitrary date.

My expectation is a table of OS versions and EOL dates published in advance. Like nearly every other responsible OS vendor in existence. Apple continuing to get a pass on this in 2024 is abhorrent.

[wtallis]

> The issue with passing off a list of vintage products as some kind of past tense support schedule is by definition products become vintage when they are added to the list at some arbitrary date.

If you read some of the text above the product list, you'll see that Apple does publish guidelines about when products can be expected to be added to the list:

> Products are considered vintage when Apple stopped distributing them for sale more than 5 and less than 7 years ago.

> Products are considered obsolete when Apple stopped distributing them for sale more than 7 years ago. Monster-branded Beats products are considered obsolete regardless of when they were purchased.

> Apple discontinues all hardware service for obsolete products, and service providers cannot order parts for obsolete products. Mac laptops may be eligible for an extended battery-only repair period for up to 10 years from when the product was last distributed for sale, subject to parts availability.

So as you can see, it's not arbitrary or unpredictable when a product is going to show up on the vintage product list. The only unpredictable or obscure part of this process is finding out how long an outdated product was still being sold after its successor launched.

[wannacboatmovie]

Ok, but this is an Apples vs oranges comparison. (Carlos!)

We are talking about software support here.

The vintage products list is specifically targeting hardware support; e.g. how long Apple will keep spare parts in stock. After a set number of years they purge stock and you are SOL going to Chinese third party vendors and places like iFixit for batteries etc.

[threeseed]

Sequoia is supported on most Intel Macs going back to 2018.

And it's far more than just a "couple of developers" to support older operating systems.

[brian_cunnie]

Agreed. It takes more than a few developers to support older operating systems.

At my old job we supported only two versions of our software product, Tanzu Operations Manager versions 2.10.x and 3.0.y), and we cut new patch releases every few weeks (similar to Apple's cadence). Bumping dependencies was a pain. Well, usually it went fine, but sometimes you'd hit a gnarly incompatibility and you'd either pin a Ruby package to a known version or try to modify the code just enough to make it work without making a major change.

If I had to put a number to it, I'd say it cost us 2 developers to keep our older product line consistently patched, and our product was a modest Ruby app, much less complicated than an entire OS.

[justinclift]

> new patch releases every few weeks (similar to Apple's cadence)

Is Apply really releasing new patched OS updates every few weeks?

[wannacboatmovie]

You act as if we should be thankful for 6 years of support when the hardware and sane support cycles easily exceed 10 years. And those aren't 6 years of security updates; they are 6 years of forced yearly feature upgrades and breaking things along the way.

[fn-mote]

What software are you talking about?

Who is forcing you to upgrade?

For that matter, what hardware?

I run an old Intel Mac and it’s perfectly reasonable for casual work. I’m not paying for stuff like Adobe leases though.

[vetinari]

What exactly is an old Intel mac and what is a casual work?

For example, I have 2015 macbook pro. The last macos release for it is Monterey. Even brew has problems with that, erroring out when installing packages like libpng and complaining, that I should upgrade xcode cli tools. Which I can't.

[fouc]

my favorite Intel MacBook is from 2015

[chris_wot]

Not on Macbook Airs that are only 3-5 years old though. We have a number that we plan on replacing after EOY, but we are still using for now. Can't get Sequoia.

[phony-account]

> Macbook Airs that are only 3-5 years old

MacBook Airs from 2020 support Sequoia - so just the very upper limit of your range is relevant.

[wannacboatmovie]

Absolutely not. Apple was still selling non-Retina Intel MacBook Airs until 2019. Those are now completely unsupported with no security updates having topped out at Monterrey. 5 years of updates on a new laptop is borderline criminal.

[chris_wot]

I see the Mac fanboys aren't happy with my factual statement. I love Macs (won't use anything else) but I also live in reality.

[password4321]

Not really suitable for a corporate environment but in case you weren't aware:

https://github.com/dortania/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher

macOS Big Sur and newer on machines as old as 2007

macOS Big Sur, Monterey, Ventura, Sonoma and Sequoia

[chris_wot]

Nice. Yeah, never going to fly here :( pity

[hulitu]

> Don't tell me the richest company in the world can't pay for a couple of developers who just want to rest and vest to take care of and test the legacy platforms.

Why would they shoot themselves in the foot ? If the new MacOS does not run on older HW and they don't release patches (no development team) it is a win-win situation: user must buy a new Mac and no money is wasted supporting old HW.