[Animus7]

This is such a powerful and often-(ab)used argument that it genuinely horrifies me. It seems these days just about anything the U.S. government does can be justified under a binding legal ruling of "top secret, we can't hear this in our courts. But trust us, it's cool."

Call me paranoid, but this is the reason I'm frightened of setting foot on U.S. soil.

[sneak]

You aren't paranoid. I packed up and left, leaving family, friends, job, and girlfriend all behind four years ago for this very reason.

It sucks. A lot. (And I still visit, even.)

[wdewind]

Where do you live that's better?

[sneak]

Berlin.

Germany has a real economy, the Germans believe in good education (or at least skilled vocational training), there are tons of hackers, a great nightlife, and the rule of law.

A big one for me was that the cops here ignore people who aren't criminals. Coming from the USA it's like a breath of fresh air.

[mixmax]

I think that, paradoxically, Hitler and the nazis helped make Germans an honest and decent people that care greatly about the law and taking care of minorities.

They've experienced what can happen if you don't.

[sneak]

Almost everything Hitler did was legal under German law. He just changed the laws first.

There is a section on the Wikipedia page about the USA PATRIOT Act that illustrates the parallels with the Reichstagsbrandverordnung (Reichstag Fire Decree).

The first section reads (translated):

"Articles 114, 115, 117, 118, 123, 124 and 153 of the Constitution of the German Reich are suspended until further notice. It is therefore permissible to restrict the rights of personal freedom [habeas corpus], freedom of (opinion) expression, including the freedom of the press, the freedom to organize and assemble, the privacy of postal, telegraphic and telephonic communications. Warrants for House searches, orders for confiscations as well as restrictions on property, are also permissible beyond the legal limits otherwise prescribed."

Sound familiar?

[adventureful]

The real economy part is absurd. America has a very real economy. It's the world's largest manufacturer (yes, larger than China).

There are more people working REAL jobs in America than the total number of people in Germany.

And you just insulted all of them.

[hnhg]

He might be talking about one balanced in favour of manufacturing rather than banking & financial services, but that's just a guess.

[mjwalshe]

Are there really tons of hackers (in the way SV or even Silicon Roundabout understands it) remember a lot of the cream of engineering grads and technicians all want to work at Audi et all and get an office with "Doktor" on the brass plate

And this is from experience in having to work with german parent companies on behalf of their uk subsidiaries on web/internet work.

Makes working with France Telecom in Agust seem childs play

[heretohelp]

You make it sound pretty good, but how does an American get a visa there?

[mjwalshe]

hmm a country where the local government FFS has its own "secret police" and you have to register with the police when you move house.

You have heard of the recent fiasco where one of the local secret police forces manged to miss (for several years) a neo nazi group under its nose who killed several people form ethic minorities finally committing suicide

[sneak]

You have to register your SSN when you get your driver's license. Same thing, as your residence is on form 1040.

At least here the police are missing stuff. In the USA they just kill/beat/arrest unarmed folks.

[flyinRyan]

>you have to register with the police when you move house.

First of all, this is done by the government, not the police. Second of all, this happens in the US as well. It's just done passively, when you file your taxes instead of actively.

[ImprovedSilence]

I understand your sentiment, and realize that several govt organizations are likely operating illegally. But I find that as a somewhat poor rationale for moving to a different country. If anything, it would be even more possible/legal for the NSA to keep track of your internettings/going abouts if you are outside the country. I'm sure they have the ability to track you just as well overseas too.