[ralegh]

I wouldn't call Go a 'server side' language. The Go compiler is written in Go, for example! Cross compilation and (relatively) small binaries make it super easy for distribution. Syntax sugar is a fair point though, it doesn't lend itself to functional-y pattern matching.

[eminent101]

> The Go compiler is written in Go, for example!

Do you know how they avoid the GC in the Go implementation of the Go compiler? If I understand correctly they need to implement the Go garbage collector in their Go implementation of the Go compiler. But Go already has a garbage collector. So how do they avoid invoking Go's garbage collector so that they can implement the garbage collector of the Go language they are implementing?

Not sure if I'm making sense but I'd like to know more about this from those who understand this more than I do.

[enugu]

We can think of the Compiler as a function from a string to a string - high level (HLC), to low level code(LLC). LLC can include the garbage collection code(if it is run as a standalone executable instead of garbage collection being done by a separated runtime).

The compiler executable itself is running in a compilation process P which uses memory and has its own garbage collection. (The compiler executable was itself generated by a compilation, using a compiler written in Go itself(self-hosting) or initially, in another language).

But the compilation process P is unrelated to the process Q in which the generated code, LLC, will run when first executed. The OS which runs LLC doesn't even know about the compiler - LLC is just another binary file. The garbage collection in P doesn't affect garbage collection in Q.

Indeed, it should be easy for the compiler to generate an assembly program which constantly keeps allocating more memory until the system runs out, while compiling say a loop which allocates a struct within a loop running a billion times. Unless, of course, you explicitly also generate a garbage collector as part of the low level code.

Your question does become very interesting in the realm of security, there is a famous paper called "Trusting Trust" where a compiled compiler can still have backdoors even if the compiled code is trustworthy and the compiler code is trustworthy but the code which compiled the compiler had backdoors.

[miningape]

Remember that a compiler generates an executable file (can almost be thought of as an ASM transpiler), this file must contain everything the language needs to operate (oversimplification) so that includes the runtime as well as the compiled instructions from the user's code. This is compared to an interpreter which doesn't require you to pack all the implementation details into a binary, so instead you can use the host language's runtime.

All this to say: the output of a compiler is by necessity not tied to the language the compiler is written in, instead it is tied to the machine the executable should run on. A compiler "merely" translates instructions from a high level language to a machine executable one. So stuff like a GC must be coded, compiled and then "injected" into the binary so the user's code can interact with it. In an interpreted language this isn't necessary, since the host language is already running and contains these tools which would otherwise have to be injected into the binary.

[James_K]

They just use the implementation from the last version of the compiler, which you can follow back in a long chain to the first implementation. As for the implementation of the garbage collector, it probably just doesn't allocate anything. The basics of a garbage collector are a function "alloc" and another one "collect". The function to allocate memory usually looks something like this:

  char heap[100000000];
  int heap_end;
  void *alloc(int n_bytes) {
    void *out = &heap[heap_end]
    heap_end += n_bytes;
    return out;
  }

As you can see, it doesn't need to allocate any memory to do this.

[umanwizard]

> They just use the implementation from the last version of the compiler

The garbage collector isn’t part of the compiler, it’s part of the runtime. It’s worth being clear about this distinction because I think it’s the root of the OP’s confusion.

[wrs]

Sure, but what’ll really bake OP’s noodle is that Go’s GC is written in Go too. :) [0]

[0] https://go.dev/src/runtime/mgc.go

[umanwizard]

How does clang, a C++ compiler that is itself written in C++, use <feature from C++> that it is itself implementing?

Why wouldn’t it be able to?

I don’t understand how your question specifically relates to garbage collection, or why the compiler would need to avoid it. The Go compiler is a normal Go program and garbage collection works in it the same way it does in any other Go program.

[P-Nuts]

I’ve never used Go myself, but according to this https://go.dev/doc/install/source you need a Go compiler to compile Go. However, for the early versions, you needed a C compiler to compile Go.

So at some point, someone wrote enough of a Go GC in C to support enough of Go to compile itself.

[afandian]

I don't understand the question as it's written.

But the shape of the question feels like you're asking about whether an interpreter (which the compiler is not) uses the GC of the host language?

[ben0x539]

I think they're asking how the code in the Go runtime (not the compiler, that being an interesting but also maybe non-obvious distinction!) that implements the garbage collector, a core feature of the language, avoids needing the garbage collector to already exist to be able to run, being written in the language that it's a core feature of. I suspect the answer is just something like "by very carefully not using language features that might tempt the compiler to emit something that requires an allocation". I think it's a fair question as it's not really obvious that that's possible--do you just avoid calling make() and new() and forming pointers to local variables that might escape? Do you need to run on a magical goroutine that won't try to grow its stack with gc-allocated segments? Can you still use slices (probably yes, just not append() or the literal syntax), closures (probably only trivial ones without local captures?), maps (probably no)...?

I think the relevant code is https://github.com/golang/go/blob/master/src/runtime/mgc.go and adjacent files. I see some annotations like //go:systemstack, //go:nosplit, //go:nowritebarrier that are probably relevant but I wouldn't know if there's any other specific requirements for that code.

[dboreham]

Why would the runtime not be allowed to use GC? I can understand the question being: how do you implement the GC code without using GC?

[ben0x539]

Yeah that's the code I mean

[the_gipsy]

On a high level the question is "how do you bootstrap X, if you need X to bootstrap X?".

[pmontra]

This is correct but it's never as hard as it seems.

First, that is a problem only for the very first version of X. Then you use X for version X+1.

Second, building from source usually doesn't mean having to build every single dependency. Some .so or .dll are already in the system. Only when one has to build everything from scratch the first step would have to solve the original X from X problem but I think that even a Gentoo full system build doesn't start with a user setting in bytes in RAM with switches (?), setting the program counter of the CPU and its registers to eventually start the bootstrap process.

[dboreham]

Definitely not making sense. Other answers appear to assume you don't know what a compiler is, but I'm not so sure. Re-state the question perhaps?

[miningape]

Well now I've got to go check out the go compiler! That sounds really interesting. I was mainly referring to go having a lot more developed concurrency features, which while they're great I didn't really want to use them for my toy language, it seemed like I was throwing away a lot of what makes golang great just because of the nature of my project.

The rest of the golang ecosystem I found really nice actually, and imo it had a really great set of tools for reading/writing to files - and also I like that everything is apart of the go binary, it certainly is easier than juggling between opam and dune (used for OCaml for example).

[ralegh]

That's fair, the concurrency features are very handy though optional of course.

The ecosystem and tooling are great, probably the best I've worked with. But the main reason I reach for Go is that it's got tiny mental overhead. There's a handful of language features so it becomes obvious what to use, so you can focus on the actual goal of the project.

There are some warts of course. Heavy IO code can be riddled with err checks (actually, why I find it a bit awkward for servers). Similarly the stdlib is quite verbose when doing file system manipulation, I may try https://github.com/chigopher/pathlib because Python's pathlib is by far my favourite interface.