[soc88]

> The core of the PHP community is filled with a lot of really talented and smart developers doing some really amazing things.

Like those, who failed for years to actually consult the results of the test suite before shipping a new release? http://gcov.php.net/viewer.php?version=PHP_5_4

Like those who change stuff incompatibly to the worse, while introducing security holes? http://php.net/manual/en/function.is-a.php https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=55475

Like those were security fixes create even larger holes? http://thexploit.com/secdev/critical-php-remote-vulnerabilit...

Like those who can't program a sane line of code in the language PHP is written in? "OMG, this calculation overflows, let's replace the int by an float!"

You can't make that shit up. I have nothing against stupid people, but against stupid people who fight against every kind of process who could prevent their own stupidity like

- "learning from mistakes",

- "learning the language they actually program in",

- "handling bug reports in a way it doesn't alienate reporters" or

- "having a decent test coverage".

Instead of thinking about yet-another-documentation site, what about fixing the devastating quality of their API documentation (especially the comments)?

[LnxPrgr3]

Still my favorite PHP bug story: http://use.perl.org/use.perl.org/_Aristotle/journal/33448.ht...

Though this one isn't far off: https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=18556.

[cdcarter]

Wait wait, this Turkish bug is just under TEN YEARS OLD?

[LnxPrgr3]

To be fair, it looks like it was fixed for a while, before resurfacing in 2006 and being ignored for the next 6 years.

[debacle]

The PHP team is bad, and has very little to do with the PHP community - Anthony (I think his name is Anthony) is talking about Fabien Potencier and John Wage and Sebastian Bergmann - people who are writing great software in spite of PHP's interpreter.

[soc88]

The question is why they don't move on to a working language, knowing that the PHP team will _never_ fix all these bugs. It is like those people who keep penny-stocks they bought years ago for a lot of money, trying not to realize that their investment is worthless now.

[ericingram]

I think it comes down to the fact that PHP does a lot of things right, and its still more efficient all around than most other tools for the problems most people need to solve in the real world.

You can point out all the flaws, but that's like pointing out the flaws in McDonald's. Sure it's cheap food, but it's consistently cheap and there's a much larger market for cheap food than gourmet food.

Perhaps "other language" developers should start thinking of themselves as gourmet chefs. And like gourmet chefs, not many people can afford their products in the real world.

[slurgfest]

The McDonald's analogy is pretty good since you can also go to any other fast food joint or even cook for yourself more cheaply and nutritiously than you eat McDonald's.

People have sentimental feelings about McDonald's, prefer the style of fries, etc. - it isn't that McDonald's products are incomparable or irreplaceable and that the only alternative is expensive, difficult "gourmet" food.

[papsosouid]

>and its still more efficient all around than most other tools for the problems most people need to solve in the real world.

How exactly? I always see vague assertions that PHP is somehow better for "stuff I do in the real world", but nothing concrete. Guess what, the rest of the world is real too. I am not writing haskell code for my imaginary friend, I am writing it for real users to use in the real world, and a real business relies on it to provide real people with real incomes to feed their real families. How exactly would PHP be "more efficient all around"?

[ericingram]

When I say efficiency, I mean in the economic sense. That the ratio of input it takes to develop some things in PHP is lower than it would be for other languages.

[papsosouid]

When I say exactly, I mean a precise, concrete example. I've used PHP for over a decade. I have yet to encounter a case where using it was optimal, only cases where using it was required by customer demands. That is why I am asking for a real example of something that is easier in PHP, instead of a vague "some stuff".

[debacle]

I honestly don't know. They're all very bright. They could add a lot to any language they programmed in. Maybe making money off of PHP is easier?

[leftnode]

How so?