[ToucanLoucan]

None of what I’m complaining about is a product of nature, full stop. It is a product of bigots.

I don’t give a shit if people understand me. I don’t understand all kinds of people, not the least are Trump voters. I don’t, by virtue of that fact, want them harmed, want their freedoms limited, or want them subjected to undue misery. And all I really want is that same treatment in return.

[RpmReviver]

You do want people to understand you more because then it's expected that you understand them, that's how we humanize each other and figure out the true issues and solve problems, when we humanize we'll find out we are all just people trying to survive this crazy world and want the best for the people we care about

It's absolutely a product of nature, bullying is nature especially for boys and young men, this is how men compete and organize themselves socially so it will never go away, you can't program this nature out of boys, woman can be just as brutal (slut shaming, etc.) and it's all to put ours selves in a hierarchy, there's always going to be a hierarchy for resources and sex, some people are assholes and will put people down to elevate themselves, and unfortunately the different and mentally weak are the first easy targets for the group, so since it's just nature, it's not personal even though it feels that way and so then you're the one that makes it personal

Go study chimp societies, some of the more brutal things they do, humans still do

This was part of the point I was trying to make, you have to treat people how you want to be treated, if your perception is that all this is just bigotry then your going to get the same response reflected back, people don't like being accused of bigotry without people knowing them, that's bigotry all by itself and people are going to get defensive

Part of the point I was trying to make is that your idea of half way and centrist is actually not for most people you would call a bigot, all the things I mentioned in my previous post are all the barriers of entry for normal/good people to have a dialogue. It's the LGBT community that's made itself unapproachable via their actions and words and it has less to do with sexual preferences

I think the response to Dave Chappelle was a big one for most people, the negative response to him was totally unjustified

The question to the LGBT community is how willing are you to meet in the middle, I think most normal people would agree with: * Make it illegal for any person under 18 to have any permanent medical procedure or treatment for gender care * Limit abortions to the 1st or 2nd trimester unless medically necessary * Agreement grooming or indoctrinating children isn't ok * Agreement pedophilia isn't ok * No men in women sports * Recognition that there's groups in LGBT community that need extra support from society * Recognition that teenagers need to feel safe to explore their sexual identity * Focus on family values and children having two parents regardless of gender

These are reasonable compromises for most people, if your community won't self police bad behavior or meet people in the middle, then you'll never have accountability or be trusted in society

[ToucanLoucan]

> It's absolutely a product of nature, bullying is nature especially for boys and young men, this is how men compete and organize themselves socially

Yes, when we're young and stupid. You're supposed to grow out of that and learn to handle yourself as a reasonable person, and we need to stop making excuses for grown adults acting like children.

> Go study chimp societies, some of the more brutal things they do, humans still do

We're not fucking chimps and we have not been "in nature" in a meaningful way since... 3,000 BC? Ish? Hierarchy is no more natural or immutable than any other part of our society. We made it. We can make it differently.

> This was part of the point I was trying to make, you have to treat people how you want to be treated

See my earlier point about me being hauled in front of a teacher for her to be like "talk out your differences" with my bully. I don't have differences with this dude. He's decided to step on me to elevate his position in society. The fuck would you have me do about this?

> It's the LGBT community that's made itself unapproachable via their actions and words and it has less to do with sexual preferences

Genuinely, with respect, what the hell are you talking about? I wasn't always what I am today, and the LGBT community was nothing but accepting and open when I, still at the time straight and male, went to them being like "hey I'm questioning some shit" and got to know them, even though at the time I was still a young conservative shit-bag.

The only time I see the LGBT folks getting pissy with people is when the aforementioned people start shit because gay folks make them feel icky.

> I think the response to Dave Chappelle was a big one for most people, the negative response to him was totally unjustified

He used the suicide of a supposed trans friend of his to excuse him spouting anti-trans rhetoric in the guise of humor. And what actually happened from all of that, because as far as I know, he's still wildly successful, rich, and getting gigs. Oh the poor baby, had to have some people on twitter be mad at him for a few weeks and literally nothing else! The horror!

> The question to the LGBT community is how willing are you to meet in the middle

Depends what your middle is. If your position is you don't wanna hear about me being gay, cool, wasn't gonna tell you anyway. If your position is I can't be gay in public, can't be gay around children, can't marry my partner, can't make use of social institutions while gay? Then fuck off.

> Make it illegal for any person under 18 to have any permanent medical procedure or treatment for gender care

I would actually say 21 personally.

> Limit abortions to the 1st or 2nd trimester unless medically necessary

The government has no place telling women what they can do with their bodies, and until such time as a fetus can support itself, it is part of the woman's body and therefore her choice.

> Agreement grooming or indoctrinating children isn't ok * Agreement pedophilia isn't ok

Literally nobody disagrees with this, the only reason it's even related is the completely made up bullshit about trans-people reading to kids in the library and that being somehow dangerous, even though we get like, weekly, 2 new abusers outed from one church or another touching kids.

Are there pedos who are trans? Sure. There's a shitload more cis-people though. If clowns abused kids as often as priests did it would be illegal to take kids to a circus.

> No men in women sports

This is a complicated issue that neither you or I is educated well enough to even discuss.

> Recognition that there's groups in LGBT community that need extra support from society * Recognition that teenagers need to feel safe to explore their sexual identity * Focus on family values and children having two parents regardless of gender

No shit? To all of that? The only thing I'd push back lightly on is single parents when they aren't chronically deprived of resources are perfectly capable of raising kids, but that situation is far from the norm.

> These are reasonable compromises for most people

I cannot emphasize to you enough that as an activist in this space, this is not even remotely what "most people" want. Most people want what Trump ran on, which is ratfucking us out of society entirely because we're the boogeymen. And as of this election, with all branches of the fed now under Republican control, they might be able to pull it off! So if we all end up some combination of imprisoned/institutionalized/dead, it would be real cool if y'all could write in this history books when the ills of society are just as present then as they are now, that I guess we got that wrong and it wasn't actually the gays making everything terrible. However, I am skeptical because history shows us when that happens, that's not what follows. Y'all just move on to the next group of people you decide is the REAL problem and do the same shit to them.

Like, I genuinely think you're trying to engage in good faith, but is is clear here that you are not part of my community, because you are coming to this, with respect, like a straight person does. That we're the oddballs, and we need to meet you in the middle in order to be credible or taken seriously or whatever and like, no? No we don't. The gay community has been around for a long, long time. We have lost a lot of people to the ignorance and bigotry expressed by straight society, both intentionally, when we got lynched, and indirectly, with the inaction during the AIDS epidemic of the healthcare system. I'm not interested in playing respectability politics with an opposition that fundamentally demands I cede ground to them in order to earn the right merely to argue my point, let alone have it be genuinely considered.

As far as I'm concerned, especially after this election, we owe you nothing.

Or to put all of that shorter; we're here, we're queer, get used to it.

[seethedeaduu]

> I would actually say 21 personally.

Try to stop us.

I suggest looking at your own post:

> The government has no place telling women what they can do with their bodies

> can't be gay around children, can't marry my partner, can't make use of social institutions while gay? Then fuck off.

[ooiaiiaa]

Nothing wrong with "anti-trans rhetoric" really. The whole concept of "trans" is based on absolutely ludicrous, sexist and homophobic ideas. It needs significant pushback.

When implemented as policy and law, it's awfully harmful, to women and children especially. The "anti-trans rhetoric" will continue until this cult-like set of beliefs is pushed to the fringes of society and is no longer used to inform policy.

[ToucanLoucan]

Well good luck with that, considering trans and intersex folks have been around... well, as long as everyone else has! But surely this time when you're taking an eliminationist position against a minority of people, history will prove you correct I'm sure, unlike... literally every other time that's happened in human history.

[RpmReviver]

I am truly sorry you have to deal with people like the one you are responding too

[RpmReviver]

People don't grow up at the same pace, no one is really fully mature, most of us in some area in our lives lack maturity and sometimes severely, it's a process, always, it's immature to not recognize this and have compassion for people, it's immature at some point to put on to the world what it "should" be instead of accepting what it is

> We're not fucking chimps and we have not been "in nature" in a meaningful way since... 3,000 BC? Ish? Hierarchy is no more natural or immutable than any other part of our society. We made it. We can make it differently.

This is not grounded in reality. Tell farmers who birth livestock that they aren't in nature, tell people who are dealing with hurricanes that they aren't contending with nature. Almost everyone's motivations come down survival and sex which doesn't get anymore primal. People will always act like animals to some degree, people will always organize themselves in a hierarchy because it's efficient and it's intrinsic to how people procreate, you're not going to win against millions of years of biology. People will always be afraid or unsure of what they don't understand

There's hierarchy's in values, everyone has to choose which of their values are more important than others, there's a reason murder is considered more heinous of a crime than petty theft, it's all down to value of life over things, but abortion is so much more complicated because it's a life vs life problem but that means both sides are right and compromise is the only option

> See my earlier point about me being hauled in front of a teacher for her to be like "talk out your differences" with my bully. I don't have differences with this dude. He's decided to step on me to elevate his position in society. The fuck would you have me do about this?

In my experience at home, in the moment, stay quiet and take it, get out as soon as possible. After that though when you're out of the environment, to not let it define you, to not let it fill you up with hate and anger, to not become a victim, to not judge entire groups of people, to not let it damage the trust you have in yourself, to be grateful for the opportunity to better understand the world and grow as a person, recognize that experiencing hell allows you to appreciate heaven, to remember there's good in the world

I absolutely recognize that I'm not part of your community but I'm also not in the pro-life community, I'm also not an activist. I recognize I won't understand your life experiences, I'm just tired of everyone shouting and dehumanizing each other, from my perspective the activists on both sides are only defending and attacking the extremes of each other to an irrational level, instead of trying to win over the extreme, you should be trying to win over the moderates with arguments rooted in love, empathy, and wisdom

Your view about abortion is just as rigid as the other side, giving both sides the benefit of the doubt, neither side has moral high ground. Abortion is such a human issue, both sides have equally valid concerns and values, so do you want to win or would you rather get something rather than nothing? The reality is for this issue, neither side is going to be happy with compromise, and dismissing that is disrespectful to the good values of the other side

>> Agreement grooming or indoctrinating children isn't ok * Agreement pedophilia isn't ok > Literally nobody disagrees with this

100% I do understand this, this is more for the other side to hear, the perception of the bad apples have to be addressed, and being explicit on this shared value would go a long way

And I absolutely agree the other side has to address their bad apples as well, I'm just not in a position to speak for the LGBT community on the specifics but the sentiment would be "The future is now old man" and be more empathetic

The conservatives could learn how to be better at nurture/empathy from your community and your community could learn how to be tougher individuals to contend with nature from them

>> Recognition that there's groups in LGBT community that need extra support from society * Recognition that teenagers need to feel safe to explore their sexual identity * Focus on family values and children having two parents regardless of gender > No shit? To all of that?

I called this out because I recognize that the other side lacks empathy and it's what I would tell them, it's what I would tell other side who think marriage should only between a man and a women and where they need to compromise, it's more important to have 2 parents

> The only thing I'd push back lightly on is single parents when they aren't chronically deprived of resources are perfectly capable of raising kids, but that situation is far from the norm.

This is not my experience, I was not in a chronically deprived situation and not having a father figure around fucked me up. Children need to see how two people manage conflict and see that there are two views of the world, it helps build their identity

I would agree sometimes a single parent would be better than two toxic people attempting to raise a kid

> That we're the oddballs

I'm 100% ignorant so don't judge, but aren't you? Aren't the majority of people just straight? I'm open to changing my world view on this

The LGBT community is seen as oddballs because based on actions, words, and everything else, it all screams extreme immaturity and mental health issues, your partner chose sterilization because of a law change, I'm sorry but that's literally insane!

> We have lost a lot of people to the ignorance and bigotry expressed by straight society, both intentionally, when we got lynched, and indirectly, with the inaction during the AIDS epidemic of the healthcare system

This is awful and not ok. At least in the mid west, all I can say overtime your community and the racial equality community has gotten the message out, things don't change over night, but I see progress, your message still gets through all the noise of everything, it's not as frequent as I would want but I see good straight men call out people's bigotry, my generation even in the middle of no where was raised on judging people by their character and we take it as disrespectful and personal to be called a bigot

I guess I would caution to think that you're fighting the same enemy, that maybe you've defeated some of your foes and the nature of your opposition has changed

> He used the suicide of a supposed trans friend of his to excuse him spouting anti-trans rhetoric in the guise of humor. And what actually happened from all of that, because as far as I know, he's still wildly successful, rich, and getting gigs. Oh the poor baby, had to have some people on twitter be mad at him for a few weeks and literally nothing else! The horror!

Between the nature/hierarchy thing and this, I'm not your opposition and don't have a ton of skin in the game, don't pay attention that closely, but this is where you lose my political support and I check out of caring because if there's not agreement on this, there never will be on anything

I did not see the same thing as you, I watched his special. I saw a comedian who was using his art to express his sadness over what happened to a friend. He was vilified for it, he did not deserve that. If ever there was going to be a moment for an olive branch, that was it, and your community blew it. Any argument against this just ends up feeling like gas lighting and high lights we aren't living in the same objective reality, and it doesn't help your cause

I am certainly not asking you to cede on the core of your values, meeting in the middle has to at least start with an attempt to not vilify your opposition, to show a base line level of respect as human beings, to not "other" people, account for not only the words of the message but also how its delivered, it doesn't matter how you've been treated in the past, bad behavior doesn't justify bad behavior, don't put the sins of others on me

[ToucanLoucan]

> People don't grow up at the same pace, no one is really fully mature, most of us in some area in our lives lack maturity and sometimes severely, it's a process, always, it's immature to not recognize this and have compassion for people, it's immature at some point to put on to the world what it "should" be instead of accepting what it is

I mean, sure? Show me a SINGLE prominent conservative who lives those values. The modern right is about REVELING in their immaturity and ignorance. They are PROUD of how little they know, and the people who follow them are emboldened to embrace their id, in every way possible. It's how you have these chuckefucks in Pennsylvania who aren't getting their bonuses this year because their company has to use that money to pre-buy goods from China before Trump's stupid tariffs kick in and skull fuck the economy. They didn't know, that part's fair, but I would bet EVERY DOLLAR I'VE GOT that people tried to fucking explain it to them and they wouldn't hear it.

Like you can only shoot yourself in the foot so many times before I just figure you got something against your toes, and I'm gonna leave the area to avoid the shrapnel.

> People will always act like animals to some degree

Oh sure, no question and I have empathy for that. But there comes a time when, as outlined above, someone is clearly just reveling in their ignorance and reflexive reactions to where it's no longer palatable to continue being around them. I have no issues at all with someone who has never met a gay person in their life who would ask me something like "so how do men fuck each other" cuz like, yeah they probably don't know and that might be weird and offputting? That's fine, everybody has to start from somewhere. But if you take that reflexive disgust and double/triple/quadruple down on it, and decide that because I sometimes fuck men, I'm a target for your misdirected rage? Yeah I'm gonna [ censored for HN ], and I will sleep well that night.

Fear, disgust, or confusion are completely understandable emotional responses. Bigotry is a choice that comes after those.

> Your view about abortion is just as rigid as the other side, giving both sides the benefit of the doubt, neither side has moral high ground.

Mine has a moral high ground because it's consistent with my other values of personal freedom. The agency that conservatives would deprive women of goes directly against their stated beliefs about personal autonomy, except for the fact that far too many don't view women as equal people of course.

> And I absolutely agree the other side has to address their bad apples as well

I mean, it goes further than that. The people they're actually afraid of, the pedophiles, actively seek positions in clergy because it gives them authority over and access to kids! And then these same motherfuckers are out here screaming at transpeople who've DONE NOTHING WRONG.

It just boils my goddamn blood.

> I'm 100% ignorant so don't judge, but aren't you? Aren't the majority of people just straight?

I mean, from a strictly majority/minority perspective, yes, but also gay, intersex, and trans people have been around for fucking ever. We are not the new and exciting threat to society that people say we are, we're just making progress on not being universally hated, so a lot more of us are around. And like, the latest numbers of us are in the mid 7%'s so like, if you have 13 people in a room, statistically, at least one of em is gay? That's a LOT.

> but this is where you lose my political support and I check out of caring because if there's not agreement on this, there never will be on anything

Then I would mostly suggest you watch some of the trans community on YouTube especially talk about what's wrong with it, and then perhaps you'd understand? Because so much of the shit he was saying was profoundly harmful, especially to people who are just getting started on their particular journey, but also for the larger community too.

And like, I'm not pleased about it. I loved Dave Chappelle back in the Comedy Central days, and I think the difference is back then he was joking about things he knew, black culture specifically, and I also get why he stepped away from doing that and have empathy for it. But then, he came back, and joked about things he didn't know, i.e. transpeople, and it doesn't work.

And it's not like you can't joke about being trans, tons of things about being trans are funny as hell, but you really need that experience to tell the good jokes. Like, the same jokes Dave Chappelle delivered about black culture back in the 90's would've felt way, way different coming out of... say, Jeff Foxworthy?

[viccon]

> who've DONE NOTHING WRONG

Generally untrue. Most of them have wilfully invaded spaces intended for the sole use of the opposite sex. This disregard of others' boundaries is in itself wrong, especially when it's a male doing so.