[cruffle_duffle]

> Give me Terraform (as much as I hate it) any day

Terraform sure is a quirky little DSL ain’t it? It’s so weirdly verbose.

But at the same time I can create some azure function app, setup my GitHub build pipeline, get auth0 happy and in theory hook up parts of stripe all in one system. All those random diverse API’s plumbed together and somehow it manages to work.

But boy howdy is that language weird.

[rwiggins]

I haven't used Terraform in years (because I changed jobs, not because of the tech itself), but back in the day v0.12 solved most of my gripes. I have always wished they'd implement a better "if" syntax for blocks, because the language itself pseudo-supports it: https://github.com/hashicorp/terraform/issues/21512

But yeah, at $previous_job, Terraform enabled some really fantastic cross-SaaS integrations. Stuff like standing up a whole stack on AWS and creating a statuspage.io page and configuring Pingdom all at once. Perfect for customers who wanted their own instance of an application in an isolated fashion.

We also built an auto-approver for Terraform plans based on fingerprinting "known-good" (safe to execute) plans, but that's a story for a different day.

[raffraffraff]

I get around most of the if stuff using "for each" to iterate over a map. That map might be config (usually from the hiera data provider) or the output of another deployment. It's not generally a very flexible "if" that you need most of the time, it's more like "if this thing exists then create an X for it", or "while crafting X turn this doohickey on of that data set has this flap", which can be accomplished my munging together days with a locals var for loop (which support if statements).

Honestly, I only use terraform with hiera now, so I pretty much only write generic and reusable "wrapper" modules that accept a single block of data from Hiera via var.config. I can use this to wrap any 3rd party module, and even wrote a simple script to wrap any module by pointing at its git project.

That probably scares the shit out of folks who do the right thing, and use a bunch of vars with types and defaults. But it's so extremely flexible and it neutered all of the usual complexity and hassle I had writing terraform. I have single handedly deployed an entire infrastructure via terraform like this, from DNS domains up through networking, k8s clusters, helm charts and monitoring stack (and a heap of other AWS services like API Gateway, SQS, SES etc). The beauty of removing all of the data out to Hiera is that I can deploy new infra to a new region in about an 2 hours, or deploy a new environment to an existing region in about 10 minutes. All of that time is just waiting for AWS to spin things up. All I have to do in code is literally "cp -a eu-west-1/production eu-west-2/production" and then let all of the "stacks" under that directory tree deploy. Zero code changes, zero name clashes, one man band.

The hardest part is sticking rigidly to naming conventions and choosing good ones. That might seem hard because cloud resources can have different naming rules or uniqueness requirements. But when you build all of your names from a small collection of hiera vars like "%{product}-%{env}-%{region}-uploads", you end up with something truly reusable across any region, environment and product.

I'm pretty sure there's no chance I'd be able to do this with Pulumi.

[stackskipton]

Tip for naming, create a naming module where you pass in stuff like product, environment, region, service, have a bunch of locals for each thing like S3 bucket, RDS, EC2, EKS whatever you use then make them all outputs.

So at top of your IaC, you have module naming {variables as inputs} then all other resources are aws_s3 { name = module.naming.s3bucket }

[grncdr]

In pulumi

     regions = [
       “eu-west-1”,
    +  “eu-west-2”,
     ]

     for region in regions:
         …

[raffraffraff]

Of course Pulumi can do for loops, you're using a proper programming language.

I meant that I doubt that I could 'cp -a' on a whole deployment tree, and deploy the copy successfully without having to make any code changes.

Although thinking about it, I take it back. It may be possible with Pulumi with the right code structure and naming conventions, and if configuration were separated entirely from the codebase, and if variables were inferred from the directory structure. That is really the thing that allows me do to it.

[grncdr]

Yes, sorry for the rather pithy response, but separating out the "what changes" vs. "what doesn't" (config vs. code in your terms) is what makes these things possible.

As you also noted, doing this in plain terraform is kind of a pain, so using a tool like Hiera allows you to skip a lot of the work involved in doing it the "right" way. IMO if you're starting greenfield Pulumi (or CDK, anything that lets you use a "real" programming language) allows you to write (or consume!) that config in basically any form, instead of needing to funnel everything through a Terraform data provider.

[paulgb]

Yeah. I guess maybe terraform makes sense if the people writing it spend enough of their time writing HCL to master it, but I ported our terraform config to Pulumi a few years ago and never looked back. It meant I could spend way less time googling for the HCL way to do something (say, templated resource) and just use the JS primitives I already know.

[hinkley]

>spend enough of their time writing HCL to master it

Making Terraform changes every six weeks was enough time that we forgot everything and had to refresh our memories. Every time it felt like going into the water in a northern beach and forgetting how goddamned cold the water was, then reproaching yourself for forgetting.