[icemanx]

as German I never felt European and neither do I know any german that feels so. Germany is the only country in europe where patriotism is considered right-wing and not seen well, in other countries there is indeed a national consent / identity, people are patriots and proud of that (poland, spain, italy, romania, albania, turkey, ...). You will definitely not get any any "we are all europeans <3" vibes there. The concept of being an "european" is a woke leftist mindset that you will encounter mostly in Berlin but it is what it is -> a woke idea and not reality

[albertzeyer]

I guess we are all in our own bubble, but in my circle of friends (all in Germany), it is rather the opposite: I and many of my friends feel quite European, and don't identify at all as being a German. I would consider myself even quite anti-patriotic. E.g. I would be quite happy if we can get rid of the countries (Germany etc) and have one unified big Europe (or EU) country, similar as USA. And this is not such an unusual view. You will definitely get many "we are all europeans" vibes. I think you will mostly see this in all the bigger cities and also all the university cities. Esp among students, this is very common.

[wink]

These are not mutually exclusive and highly depend on what criteria you look at and how you weight them.

I am not even sure how I feel, and less of trying to objectively decide what I am. I definitely feel stronger ties to Munich and Bavaria than to Germany (let's not speak about politics though) and I 90% agree with the concept of being European, but it's indeed so very abstract that I am not sure if I really feel European. Maybe it's more of a superficial look at cliches and seeing yourself in them.

[ballooney]

Just to be clear incase the other replies haven’t made it so, you are definitely, definitely completely wrong about this and continuing to think this way will cause you to misunderstand the world you live in and make mistaken decisions. I have lived in several European countries and they all have a sect of loud delicate people pretending they are victims and persecuted for wanting to be patriots.

[em-bee]

you are contradicting yourself. patriotism being considered right wing is exactly why germans prefer to feel european. and it's not only germany, everywhere else in europe too people consider german patriotism as rightwing.

while i lived in germany, when i traveled abroad telling people i live in germany the reaction was noticeably different compared to later when i moved to austria.

people outside of germany assume that germans are as patriotic as they are for their own country. combined that with hate crimes in germany making headlines and you can easily see how people think about germans.

when angela merkel welcomed all refugees during the syria crisis it was the first time i felt proud to have lived there. (officially recognizing dual citizenship was the second. you can say what you want about germans, but at least their laws in this area are developing in the right direction. they recently made it easier to get german citizenship too)

[Rinzler89]

>when angela merkel welcomed all refugees during the syria crisis it was the first time i felt proud to have lived there.

This national delusion and inability to separate the harsh reality from wishful thinking, is why Germany is going to shit and why many skilled Germans are emigrating to places like Switzerland and the US with saner policies and stricter immigration laws. My current boss is the third one I'm seeing emigrate to the US where they're happier than in Germany and get better healthcare. And I lost track on how many colleagues I saw move to CH in the last 10 years.

I expect the politicians I vote for and pay half my salary every month to take care of their own citizens first and foremost and not prioritize outsiders who aren't their citizens/voters using my tax Euros.

Has every homeless and starving citizen of Germany been taken care of with a roof over their head and food? No? Then where are you going to house and feed all those foreign refugees you're bringing in? With what money? If you have money for refugees you should have for the locals as well first and foremost.

Has every citizen of Germany received timely healthcare in the public system and easy to find a place in kindergartens/school/Hausarzt? No, because you have a shortage of doctors and teachers? Then how is importing more unskilled foreigners gonna make these public staff shortages better for the local citizens?

This is not "right wing extremism" take, it's just basic economics and survivorship common sense based on availability of limited resources by respecting democratic principles of the citizens.

So politicians, please don't use my tax money to care for foreigners when you haven't yet taken care of the locals who pay your wages and fund the public systems we need. Please perform your virtue signaling on how generous and welcoming you are using your own private money and properties, not the taxpayers'. Because it's very easy to be generous with someone else's money.

[em-bee]

and exactly where should these refugees have gone to instead? you think the situation is better anywhere else?

the problems you mention are not unique to germany. and yes, it baffles me why no country can recognize that the only way to solve those problems is to put more resources into education. but denying refugees a save harbor is not going to improve your life one bit. those two issues are completely unrelated to each other.

the question is that of a general attitude towards others. people who favor their own over refugees tend to also favor them over their neighbors, and when that happens we have a problem.

let not a man glory in that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves the world.

[LargoLasskhyfv]

Depends on the 'culture' and 'values' of the refugees. Maybe those are exactly the reasons for the failure of their states?

[Rinzler89]

>and exactly where should these refugees have gone to instead?

I don't know and I don't care since it's not a problem I created and I don't want my taxe Euros to be used on global charity, I want them used on the local citizens first and foremost. Why didn't the wealthy neighboring countries that are similar in culture like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, etc. take them in? Why must it be always the liberal European countries far away in charge of charity?

Imagine the local native American/Australian people seeing the British/European colonizers arrive on boats on their land and welcome them saying "where should these people go to instead?" instead of fighting them to kick them out. Or the Why would you ever welcome invaders? Hasn't history shown what happens over and over again? The culture with the most valance dominates the others. Why do you think random parts in the middle of Africa speak French?

> but denying refugees a save harbor is not going to improve your life one bit. those two issues are completely unrelated to each other.

How so? Less people coming to compete for access to limited healthcare and housing will definitely improve the life of the locals. It's just the basic economics of supply/demand. Do you think arithmetic is wrong? Denying this would be some advanced form of cope/delusion.

If those refugees would be such valuable human resources like skilled doctors and teachers with a great culture of assimilation, then all their wealthy neighboring countries I mentioned above would be fighting over them to bring them over instead of rejecting them. You don't want to import the dross that nobody else wants, so then why is Europe doing it?

> people who favor their own over refugees tend to also favor them over their neighbors, and when that happens we have a problem.

Maybe this kind of gaslighting and guilt tripping works on some people with luxury beliefs, not on me though. I like to be realistic on the economic realities and scarcity of resources. Noting personal against anyone or any group of people.

>let not a man glory in that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves the world.

Luxury beliefs and virtue signaling. Feel free to engage in them as much as you like, but on your own dime.

[em-bee]

it's not a problem I created

but it's a problem we all have to live with, so the only way out is to do something about it. we can't just ignore it.

Why didn't the wealthy neighboring countries that are similar in culture like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, etc. take them in?

most of them actually went to turkey, followed by lebanon and jordan as distant second and third. germany only took half a milion from a total of more than 5 million. the countries you mention are separated from syria by a large desert without a practical way to travel there, so it's not surprising they didn't go there.

Imagine the local native American/Australian people seeing the British/European colonizers arrive

sorry what? how does colonisation in any way compare with being a refugee? while it is true that at there were many escaping religious prosecution, the problem was that they overwhelmed the natives by the numbers and with greed. not to speak of what happend in africa. noone went there to escape anything. to compare colonization with refugees seeking shelter is quite frankly insulting.

Luxury beliefs and virtue signaling. Feel free to engage in them as much as you like, but on your own dime.

you bet i am. but it's not a luxury. it's an absolute necessity. only if we improve conditions everywhere in the world can we improve our own lives too. the worlds countries are way to interdependent for any country to be able to go on their own.

[Rinzler89]

>refugees seeking shelter

I'm not legally nor morally obliged to provide them shelter, not do I wish to with my tax money. "No taxation without representation." It should be the voters' choice what to do with their tax money and I vote to provide shelter first to the local EU nationals. When there are no locals struggling to afford shelter, then we can talk about helping strangers from other places. No matter what you do, there will always be people suffering on the planet. It's not my job to help them all with my tax money nor is it realistically possible.

>only if we improve conditions everywhere in the world can we improve our own lives too.

Kneecapping our economy and our working class' standard of living in the noble pursuit of fixing the world's issues is not the choice most taxpayers want (see the swing in election results) nor is it realistically achievable no matter how much you reduce your heating/AC and how many paper straws you use when another Exxon oil tanker dumps its waste in the ocean as we speak and the likes of Nestle keep destroying the planet for profit and China and India are burning more cheap fossil fuel.

As long as the global economy revolves around greed of destroying the environment and privatizing the winnings in the pockets of a few multinational corporations and socializing the losses to the governments, environment and the working class taxpayers, your individual actions and sacrifices are in vain, while you're proposing the European working class should pay for this damage when it's not their fault nor responsibility since they're not profiting from this.

So squeezing the European working class further into poverty, in the name of some virtue signaling for the sake of the world (which the US, India, China and the Middle East aren't doing), is how you get another Adolf elected in Europe.

[icemanx]

"and exactly where should these refugees have gone to instead? you think the situation is better anywhere else? "

why should we care?

[Toorkit]

>Germany is the only country in europe where patriotism is considered right-wing and not seen well

Unless it's soccer time, then they're clad in flags and screaming "'SCHLAAAND!"

[groestl]

> Germany is the only country in europe where patriotism is considered right-wing and not seen well

Nah, not exactly. Source: Am Austrian.

[em-bee]

has this changed in the recent decades? when i was there austria's right wing party was way more open about their intentions than would have been acceptable in germany. but also i didn't feel that at least mild patriotism was considered right wing at all. i mean we all joke how we are glad not to be germans. :-)

and austria's reputation in the world is also quite different. people talk about austria being a country of music.

you do know austria's two greatest achievements? to make the world believe that beethoven is austrian and hitler is german

[wink]

I've never seen such a stark contrast between capital and rural areas than in Austria (maybe with a couple bigger cities being in the middle), so without looking at where the person you replied to is from you could have a real agree/disagree disconnect.

[em-bee]

well, that would only work if i was living in a rural area. i think the disconnect is rather that i have lived in both countries and experienced the different attitudes there. it probably goes like this: rural austria > rural germany > large cities in austria > large cities in germany. but i have only lived in the latter two, so i can't really talk about rural areas either way.

[voytec]

Poland's right-wing is pushing nationalism and anti-EU propaganda under the guise of patriotism. The word lost its original meaning since pre-1991 communist era.

[Semaphor]

You already showed in your other, deservedly dead, comment that you have no idea what you are talking about (e.g. claiming Bildungsurlaub does not exist, despite one easily being able to look up the relevant laws), so keep your lack of knowledge to yourself and troll somewhere else.

[kunley]

He does have a point tho, at least partly

Germany is using the "we are all Europeans" agenda in their own interest.

Normal folks just don't care that much about politics tho and embrace their own culture.