[latexr]

> Humans are machines

Even if we accept the premise (seeing humans as machines is literally dehumanising and a favourite argument of those who exploit them), not all machines are created equal. Would you use a bicycle to fill your taxes?

> Somehow, we got to the moon

Quite hand wavey. We didn’t get to the Moon by reading a bunch of text from the era then probabilistically joining word fragments, passing that around the same funnel a bunch of times, then blindly doing what came out, that’s for sure.

> The suggestion that errors just mindlessly compound and that there is no way around it

Is one that you made up, as that was not my argument.

[danielmarkbruce]

LLMs are a lot better at a lot of things than a lot of humans.

We got to the moon using a large number of systems to a) avoid errors where possible and b) build in redundancies. Even an LLM knows this and knew what the statement meant:

https://chatgpt.com/share/6722e04f-0230-8002-8345-5d2eba2e7d...

Putting "corrected" in quotes and saying "death spiral" implies error compounding.

https://chatgpt.com/share/6722e19c-7f44-8002-8614-a560620b37...

These LLMs seem so smart.

[philipwhiuk]

> LLMs are a lot better at a lot of things than a lot of humans.

Sure, I'm really poor painter, Midjourney is better than me. Are they better than a human trained for that task, on that task? That's the real question.

And I reckon the answer is currently no.

[danielmarkbruce]

The real question is can they do a good enough job quickly and cheaply to be valuable. ie, quick and cheap at some level of quality is often "better". Many people are using them in the real world because they can do in 1 minute what might take them hours. I personally save a couple hours a day using ChatGPT.

[latexr]

Ah, well then, if the LLM said so then it’s surely right. Because as we all know, LLMs are never ever wrong and they can read minds over the internet. If it says something about a human, then surely you can trust it.

You’ve just proven my point. My issue with LLMs is precisely people turning off their brains and blindly taking them at face value, even arduously defending the answers in the face of contrary evidence.

If you’re basing your arguments on those answers then we don’t need to have this conversation. I have access to LLMs like everyone else, I don’t need to come to HN to speak with a robot.

[danielmarkbruce]

You didn't read the responses from an LLM. You've turned your brain off. You probably think self-driving cars are also a nonsense idea. Can't work. Too complex. Humans are geniuses without equal. AI is all snake oil. None of it works.

[latexr]

You missed the mark entirely. But it does reveal how you latch on to an idea about someone and don’t let it go, completely letting it cloud your judgement and arguments. You are not engaging with the conversation at hand, you’re attacking a straw man you have constructed in your head.

Of course self-driving cars aren’t a nonsense idea. The execution and continued missed promises suck, but that doesn’t affect the idea. Claiming “humans are geniuses without equal” would be pretty dumb too, and is again something you’re making up. And something doesn’t have to be “all snake oil” to deserve specific criticism.

The world has nuance, learn to see it. It’s not all black and white and I’m not your enemy.

[danielmarkbruce]

Nope, hit the mark.

Actually understand LLMs in detail and you'll see it isn't some huge waste of time and energy to have LLMs correct outputs from LLMs.

Or, don't, and continue making silly, snarky comments about how stupid some sensible thing is, in a field you don't understand.

[malcolmgreaves]

> These LLMs seem so smart.

Yes, they do *seem* smart. My experience with a wide variety of LLM-based tools is that they are the industrialization of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

[danielmarkbruce]

It's more likely the opposite. Humans rationalize their errors out the wazoo. LLMs are showing us we really aren't very smart at all.

[Johanx64]

Humans are obviously machines. If not, what are humans then? Fairies?

Now once you've recognized that, you're better equiped for task at hand - which is augmenting and ultimately automating away every task that humans-as-machines perform by building equivalent or better machine that performs said tasks at fraction of the cost!

People who want to exploit humans are the ones that oppose automation.

There's still long way to go, but now we've finally reached a point where some tasks that were very ellusive to automation are starting to show great promise of being automated, or atleast being greatly augmented.

[beepbooptheory]

Profoundly spiritual take. Why is that the task at hand?

The conceit that humans are machines carries with it such powerful ideology: humans are for something, we are some kind of utility, not just things in themselves, like birds and rocks. How is it anything other than an affirmation of metaphysical/theological purpose to particularly humans? Why is it like that? This must be coming from a religious context, right?

I cannot at least see how you could believe this while sustaining a rational, scientific mind about nature, cosmology, etc. Which is fine! We can all believe things, just know you cant have your cake and eat it too. Namely, if anybody should believe in fairies around here, it should probably be you!

[danielmarkbruce]

> Why is that the task at hand?

Because it's boring stuff, and most of us would prefer to be playing golf/tennis/hanging out with friends/painting/etc. If you look at the history of humanity, we've been automating the boring stuff since the start. We don't automate the stuff we like.

[Johanx64]

Where's the spiritual part?

Recognizing that humans, just like birds are self-replicating biological machines is the most level-headed way of looking at it.

It is consistent with observations and there are no (apparent) contraditions.

The spritual beliefs are the ones with the fairies, binding of the soul, made of special substrate, beyond reason and understanding.

If you have desire to improve human condition (not everyone does) then the task at hand naturally arisies - eliminate forced labour, aging, disease, suffering, death, etc.

This all naturally leads to automation and transhumanism.

[lelanthran]

> Humans are obviously machines. If not, what are humans then? Fairies?

If humans are machines, then so are fairies.