[hitradostava]

100% agree. We don't expect human developers to be perfect, why should we expect AI assistants. Code going to production should go through review.

I do think that LLMs will increase the volume of bad code though. I use Cursor a lot, and occasionally it will produce perfect code, but often I need to direct and refine, and sometimes throw away. But I'm sure many devs will get lazy and just push once they've got the thing working...

[sdesol]

> 100% agree. We don't expect human developers to be perfect, why should we expect AI assistants.

I think the issue is that we are currently being sold that it is. I'm blown away by how useful AI is, and how stupid it can be at the same time. Take a look at the following example:

https://app.gitsense.com/?doc=f7419bfb27c896&highlight=&othe...

If you click on the sentence, you can see how dumb Sonnet-3.5 and GPT-4 can be. Each model was asked to spell-check and grammar-check the sentence 5 times each, and you can see that GPT-4o-mini was the only one that got this right all 5 times. The other models mostly got it comically wrong.

I believe LLM is going to change things for the better for developers, but we need to properly set expectations. I suspect this will be difficult, since a lot of VC money is being pumped into AI.

I also think a lot of mistakes can be prevented if you include in your prompt, how and why it did what it did. For example, the prompt that was used in the blog post should include "After writing the test, summarize how each rule was applied."

[simonw]

"I think the issue is that we are currently being sold that it is."

The message that these systems are flawed appears to be pretty universal to me:

ChatGPT footer: "ChatGPT can make mistakes. Check important info."

Claude footer: "Claude can make mistakes. Please double-check responses."

https://www.meta.ai/ "Messages are generated by AI and may be inaccurate or inappropriate."

etc etc etc.

I still think the problem here is science fiction. We have decades of sci-fi telling us that AI systems never make mistakes, but instead will cause harm by following their rules too closely (paperclip factories, 2001: A Space Odyssey etc).

Turns out the actual AI systems we have make mistakes all the time.

[DanHulton]

But on the other other hand, there's the commercials generated to sell new models or new model features, that FREQUENTLY lie about actual capabilities and fake demos and don't actually end with an equivalent amount of time going over how actual usage may be shit and completely unlike the advertisement.

I'd say parent is absolutely correct - we ARE being sold (quite literally, through promotional material, i.e. ads) that these models are way more capable than they actually are.

[sdesol]

You do have to admit, the footer is extremely small and it's also not in the most prominent place. I think most "AI companies" probably don't go into a sales pitch saying "It's awesome, but it might be full of shit".

I do see your science fiction angle, but I think the bigger issue is the media, VCs, etc. are not clearly spelling out that we are nowhere near science fiction AI.

[jazzyjackson]

I appreciate the footer on Kagi Assistant: "Assistant can make mistakes. Think for yourself when using it" - a reminder that theres a tendency to outsource your own train of thought

[sdesol]

I would have to imagine 90+ percent of people use LLM and AI to outsource their thought and most will not heed this warning. OpenAI might say "Check important info." but they know most people probably won't do a google search or visit their library to fact check things.

[mvdtnz]

> We don't expect human developers to be perfect, why should we expect AI assistants.

What absolute nonsense. What an absurd false equivalence. It's not that we expect perfection or even human level performance from "AI". It's that the crap that comes out of LLMs is not even at the level of a first year student. I've never in my entire life reviewed the code of a junior engineer and seen them invent third party APIs from whole cloth. I've never had a junior send me code that generates a payload that doesn't validate at the first layer of the operation with zero manual testing to check it. No junior has ever asked me to review a pull request containing references to an open source framework that doesn't exist anywhere in my application. Yet these scenarios are commonplace in "AI" generated code.

[simonw]

That problem genuinely doesn't matter to me at all.

If an LLM hallucinates a method that doesn't exist I find out the moment I try and run the code.

If I'm using ChatGPT Code Interpreter (for Python) or Claude analysis mode (for JavaScript) I don't even have to intervene: the LLM can run in a loop, generating code, testing that it executes without errors and correcting any mistakes it makes.

I still need to carefully review the code, but the mistakes which cause it not to run at all are by far the least amount of work to identify.

[mvdtnz]

Yes I've seen the dreck you produce with LLMs. Not a shining endorsement in my eyes.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41929174

[simonw]

Which of those did you think were dreck?

I think the source code for tools like this one is genuinely good code: https://github.com/simonw/tools/blob/main/extract-urls.html

What do you see that's wrong with that?

[mvdtnz]

It's a toy. It doesn't do useful work. The code is fine for the pathetically small sample but that coding style does not scale to real software scales.

[sdesol]

> style does not scale to real software scales

I think those that dismiss AI completely will fall behind, and those that turn it into a crutch will pay for it in the years to come. I truly believe AI is game changing, as I used it to create standalone functions and get answers that saved me a day or two of research and reading. I've never worked with the cheerio library before but it answered everything I needed to know, among other things. It wasn't perfect though, as it (can't remember the model) wasted some time for me regarding the SQLite library for Node.js.

I think the issue we have right now is we are treating LLM as a final solution (mainly due to investors) instead of thinking of it as a new interface, with quirks that cannot be taken lightly. It's a bit extreme, but I think junior developers should not be allowed to use LLM. LLM is a Power Tool for developers that can easily spot BS and/or have the confidence and knowledge to fix BS that is missed.

[simonw]

The purpose of my "14 things I built in the last week" post was not to demonstrate large software - it was to show how the cost of building small applications has effectively fallen close to zero for me.

I can knock out small but useful applications in genuinely less time than it would take me to Google for an existing solution to the same problem.

You can call them dreck if you like. I call (most of) them useful solutions.

[NitpickLawyer]

|_____| <- dreck code

... ... ... |_____| <- it's good code, but toy problem

I guess we all see where the goalposts will be tomorrow. Good code, good problem, I don't like the language. Or something :)