[sambe]

How is there artificial demand? The scalpers aren't buying tickets for fun - there has to be someone to flip them TO. These people are fans and they create the demand, as stated in the grandparent.

Edit: a common "rebuttal" in this thread (see diek, potch, drivingmenuts) seems to be that there is an assumption of correct market price being the aim. That isn't the assumption or the point. The point is that excess demand creates the problem. There are several approaches to this (first come first served, lottery, aftermarket) but getting rid of scalpers doesn't solve the fundamental problem. The only thing they (may) be doing wrong is going against the wishes of the artist (if they prefer to use another method). It's not clear that e.g lottery is better than finding the true price (or vice versa).

[Androsynth]

Re: Correct Market Pricing

1-This is inherently a class-based argument. It assumes that someone with more money than you isn't a 'real fan' and that his true fans are the squeezed middle class (or whatever class-bracket you happen to be in).

2-The world doesn't owe you anything. Thinking this is unfair because you can't afford tickets to a stand-up comedy show is the epitome of a First-World problem.

edit: this isn't exactly a reply to sambe's comment. I was taking his 'Correct Market Pricing' comment that was addressed at the rebuttals and adding to it.

[joezydeco]

C'mon, let's have a little reality here.

Anyone that has tried to deal with buying tickets (either in today's system or even back in the old days where you had to stand in line) knows that there are people with large sums of cash willing to pay people to stand in line or bombard ticketmaster.com with requests to land tickets for a show they have no intention of seeing. They resell those tickets immediately for a profit to the people that really wanted to see the show. Go look at StubHub.com 30 minutes after a popular rock concert goes on sale. Did every single one of those sellers have a sick grandmother pop up?

No, the world doesn't owe anyone anything, and this isn't a white whine. It's an example of how people with more time and resources than you can jump ahead of you in line and, as a result either deny you an experience or make you pay more out of pocket for it...all in the name of profit.

[larrys]

"more time and resources than you can jump ahead of you in line and, as a result either deny you an experience or make you pay more out of pocket for it."

Isn't that the way the world works? We aren't talking about access to food, education, or healthcare here. We're talking about entertainment. Is there a particular reason why someone with more time or money shouldn't have an edge and be able to spend their money to do something someone with less money can't do?

If you fly enough you also can get upgraded to first class cabin. Is there something not fair about that as well?

[shinratdr]

> Is there a particular reason why someone with more time or money shouldn't have an edge and be able to spend their money to do something someone with less money can't do?

Because the performer wants them to be able to?

[mattgreenrocks]

Scalping is asshole behavior. It is that simple. Don't sugarcoat it in talk of 'smoothing' markets. The scalpers do not add any value to the transaction. They merely inflate the price.

I'm so sick of HN over-intellectualizing topics in order to avoid the difficult discussions of ethics. I'm guessing they're avoided because (gasp) it isn't objective. The horror!

[dagw]

The ability to buy a ticket for a popular show at short notice on (or close to) the day of the show has real value to me, and is a service I'm occasionally willing to pay for.

For example last time I was in London I just happened to see that a band I liked was playing that evening. Having no other plans I wandered up to the venue a couple of hours before opening and a kind gentleman outside was happy to sell me a ticket. Sure I paid roughly double the value printed on the ticket, but to me it was worth it for the service and convenience.

Now I'm not saying that scalping is the best solution to this problem, but there is definitely a market here (for tickets on short notice in my case) and money to be made and value to be added.

[Resident_Geek]

If I'm a person who's willing to pay above face value for a ticket but didn't get in line fast enough, the scalpers provide tremendous value to me.

[joezydeco]

...unless the scalpers were the reason you weren't in line fast enough.

[vacri]

How does being upgraded to the first-class cabin deprive a poorer person of flying?

And no, it's not a blanket statement of the way the world works. There's plenty of things like copyright that prevent a gorilla just coming along and taking your toys for themselves.

[alxp]

Performers now know that they lose good will when a fan has to pay a scalper to see them. Louis C.K. is earning tons of good will by doing this, and the only person who loses out is the scalper. Wealthier fans have always been able to work the system to get extra tickets, back stage access, etc.

[larrys]

"Louis C.K. is earning tons of good will by doing this"

People want to see Louis because he is funny. The minute he stops being funny all that good will won't mean a thing.

[nooneelse]

Your hyperbole ("the minute") isn't aiding in understanding reality. Lots of artists have enough good will built up in their fan-base that they can produce a few bombs and still retain enough fans to reboot their act back to something that the fans like.

[larrys]

Perhaps "the minute" was a bit much in trying to prove my point.

First, I think comedians are a little different then other types of artists who have a little more latitude in their work. I'm speaking specifically about the buzz that surrounds this particular artist right now who is very funny. And what I'm saying is that if he stops being funny, in general or not as funny, the goodwill that he built up won't matter in terms of bringing a significant number of people to his shows.

And if he becomes funny again people will want to attend his shows regardless of something like what he is doing. I don't believe the fact that (this type of) goodwill would make a big difference in how quickly the audience returns.

And in any case the reason any artists matters at all is because they provide entertainment that people like. That is their product. The "good will" part isn't what got them to where they are today and won't keep them there if they fail to deliver.

The old Howard Stern (haven't listened to him since he was on non satellite was quite the asshole in many cases. Despite that he had a big following even from people who thought he was a dick. Because he provided entertainment that people like they overlooked undesirable things about him.

[vacri]

And people won't purchase a luxury car if the engine doesn't work. Clearly that means there's no difference between a luxury and regular car, right?

[nooneelse]

How is your second point at all relevant? No one is talking about being owed anything. This situation isn't the consumers pushing against scalpers, it is the performer/artist himself.

You seem to be against Louis C.K. having the freedom to sell his product how and at the price he chooses (for whatever reasons he thinks are of merit). Why?

[sambe]

An odd comment - I didn't say either of these things.

However, other people are saying them and I'm with you - both are fallacies. Particularly on the first, I'd suggest to "real fans" that they consider whether they prefer paying more than face value or not going at all (just in terms of their utility, not as a point of principle). If the latter, then consider the option of refusing the higher price - same result, you don't go! There are no easy solutions.

The perceived issue - I guess - is when a very high percentage of tickets become resold and you don't agree with this method. I'd say your very small chance of getting a face value ticket is still representative of a world without scalpers as they are, as always, acting as a proxy for real demand, which would otherwise be competing with you for face value tickets directly.

[pessimizer]

It is absolutely a class-based argument, and not the fault of scalping, but the class-based argument is a reasonable argument. To the extent that an uneven wealth distribution is based on insider networks, regulatory capture, and rent-seeking, nominal demand is pushed higher than actual utility.

[vacri]

Class-based argument? Your prejudice is showing. The 'true fan' part is about following the goings-on of the performer and being aware that there's a show coming up, and trying to get tickets ASAP instead of two days before the event. Please stop trying to make absolutely everything about money.