[randmeerkat]

> Artistic skill lies not merely in the hand, but also in the eye.

Precisely. There is no skill in artistry, it’s rather just a developed sense of style, that doesn’t come from a medium or method, it comes from growing to know oneself.

[aspenmayer]

I agree. I think the distinction between arts and crafts is largely one of utility, rather than skill or technique.

[randmeerkat]

> I agree. I think the distinction between arts and crafts is largely one of utility, rather than skill or technique.

Which is why I take offense to someone claiming that it selects for and requires skill. Especially because the ones making that argument are usually the ones arguing that they’re incapable of making art. I would tell them they just need to spend more time finding themselves.

[aspenmayer]

> Which is why I take offense to someone claiming that it selects for and requires skill. Especially because the ones making that argument are usually the ones arguing that they’re incapable of making art. I would tell them they just need to spend more time finding themselves.

And spend more time (and intentional effort) in making art! It's like people want a shortcut to end result, when "real" artists know that the process of self-discovery is the reason and means through which they make the art in the first place.

The map is not the territory. The purpose of the journey is the journey itself; the destination is simply a guiding star. A whole lot of aspirational mapmakers think if they only had "this one weird trick," they'd be gods.

[Filligree]

Um, no, I want illustrations for my stories. That’s the end, and the means can be whatever. I don’t care to search for self-discovery in that.

[aspenmayer]

That’s a reasonable expectation and desirable outcome in and of itself. Not everything needs to be intended to be art for it to be perceived as such.

Art is in the eye of the beholder.

Do you share your stories publicly? I’m curious what kind of stories you would write.

It would be cool to have an HN writing group!

[Filligree]

I do, but it’s obscure fanfiction. Admittedly with heavy computer science and AI inspirations, so maybe you’d find it interesting regardless?

It’s over here: https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/shards-of-a-br...

[randmeerkat]

> Um, no, I want illustrations for my stories. That’s the end, and the means can be whatever. I don’t care to search for self-discovery in that.

Maybe writing a story is your art… Part of self-discovery is in finding out how you desire to express yourself. There’s a reason many books have a an author and an illustrator.

[Filligree]

No question about that, but I always get slightly annoyed about people who insist artwork has to be internally fulfilling or whatever.

Great if that’s how it works for you, but for me it’s a means to an end.

[bambax]

Just watched "F for Fake" (Orson Welles, 1973), a documentary of sorts about the great art forger Elmyr de Hory who was able to imitate the style of many of his contemporaries to perfection (Modigliani, Matisse, etc.), fooling the painters themselves!

At one point in the movie his biographer says

> I think Elmyr's problem for years and the reason why he could not succeed as a painter in his own right was that the type of life he led prohibited him from having a personal vision.

Elmyr had great skill, greater than anyone alive perhaps, but he had nothing to say.

[randmeerkat]

> Elmyr had great skill, greater than anyone alive perhaps, but he had nothing to say.

I would argue that he spoke volumes and had a vision so vast that he was able to take perspective from any other’s view. What a rich life Elmyr must have led.