[consteval]

> It’s divisive to demand WFH for a single class of worker

... which nobody does. Rather people simply imagine they do, because they're intellectually lazy.

We go through this same conversation again and again and again. "Oh Starbucks workers make 15 an hour now?? Who do they think they are! I work construction and only make 12!"

"Oh Bucees gives three weeks vacation? Well I work much harder and I don't get any!"

"Wait California gets salary disclosure?? They're such wusses, I don't need that!!1!"

Of course we can go even further back, hundreds of years, and just replay those advancements but I'm tired. The point is that if you want improvement you PULL UP, not PUSH DOWN.

Shitting on yourself with the intention of making other's already shitty situations look not-that-shitty isn't valiant. It's pathetic, across the board. We should PULL UP each other, not PUSH DOWN each other. Then we all end up higher. You want to be fair BUT better - not fair but worse.

[kcplate]

You are never going convince someone whose job will never be able to shift to remote that you are pulling up anyone but yourself with a crusade for WFH. You just won’t get the sympathy because having to write code in an office is not equivalent to working in a sweatshop and frankly everyone seems to know this with the exception of the opinionated tech class.

So you should realize that you are your only advocate in this fight and if you can’t convince your organization why RTO isn’t in their best interest, your option is to find a company that is friendly to your remote working needs or settle in to your new normal…which was the old normal for most tech workers until March of 2020.

[consteval]

> You just won’t get the sympathy

You absolutely will, you guys are just incredibly short-sighted.

I know because I worked food service for a decade. I've worked hard jobs where I'm on my feet 9+ hours a day. People in those positions are shockingly class-conscious. In my experience, much more so than software engineers.

Software engineers have a tendency to fall into Delusions of Grandeur, IMO. They might convince themselves they're not working class because instead of making 60,000 they make 100,000. So, then they justify a ton of different mistreatment because they think they're unique.

It's self-destructive, of course. You gain nothing by being content with RTO. You also gain nothing by exhibiting company loyalty. You gain very little by moving up. The waiters, cooks, and bathroom attendants understand this. The software engineers are still working on it.

I agree the best INDIVIDUAL option is to find a different company. But if everyone shared my mentality this would be fixed on an industry level. But they don't, a lot share your mindset, wherein they are weak, and they are subordinate. At one of my previous jobs, we fought for breaks. If people such as yourself were around, we probably would've never gotten the right to eat at work.

[kcplate]

> I've worked hard jobs where I'm on my feet 9+ hours a day.

So have I and in an industrial laundry no less—picture a big steaming hot and humid warehouse loading dirty shop rags and food service mats into giant washing vats. I can assure you that no point in time was I ever worried about the working conditions of the accounting clerks in the air conditioned offices in their comfortable chairs on their ass all day. Frankly back then, if I heard them complaining about actually having to show up at the office, I would probably grab a handful of greasy and chemical soaked rags with machine shop shards stuck to them and pelt them with them.

[consteval]

Right, and this is incredibly sad and pathetic. Sorry to say. You're bending over and appealing to the wants of the people who exploit you.

Has it never occurred to you that it's beneficial to those who run industrial laundry to make you feel as though you cannot demand better? Because that's what you're saying here - "some people have it worse, therefore I should be grateful and never demand better"

You understand such a mindset is one inherently designed to make you as unsuccessful as possible? This is self-destructive. This is very common anti-union propaganda, for example.

What you're missing is that while you were working in industrial laundry you actually were very privileged. Many, many people worked jobs so much worse than yours you can't even conceptualize it. What, then, do you think they're thinking of you? Perhaps... the exact same thoughts you have? So why not then cut the pay of those in industrial laundry? Why not then whip them into shape? Better yet, let us chain them to the floors, for then maybe they'll understand our graciousness.

There is always a bigger fish. If you believe you're the biggest fish, then not only are you pathetic, you're also stupid.

[kcplate]

Well you have degenerated your conversation to insults, which is to be expected when people skate around the edges of Marxism and their optimism about that utopia where people of all classes will willfully give up their human condition for some pie in the sky all for one, one for all collectivism but I am going to respond anyway.

I wasn’t unhappy with my job at the time, I was happy to trade my labor in those conditions for the paycheck I was given. However, if the accountants that worked for the company expected me to support a need for them to work from home, because they felt that their working conditions were less than desirable, I could not understand or support that because—-and this is the important point here—-their working conditions were fine and appropriate for the job they were being asked to do.

I would also understand at that time that some other “worse” position than mine might consider my situation preferable. There were a lot of opportunities that I had that I didn’t take for the very reason being it would have been far worse. I also would not expect those folks to ever support a need for me that they found ridiculous.

But let’s face it, the relative differences between the conditions of say a sewer worker and an industrial launderer are really not as great in condition or pay. But there is a huge difference between a SWE working in a climate controlled office with a 6 figure salary, free drinks, and snacks and a sewer worker.

You want them to be supportive of an improved retirement plan, medical benefits…they can and will get behind you. You want them while they are knee deep in literal shit to get behind your desire to type on a laptop in your comfy living room on a recliner while in your pajamas—I wouldn’t hold your breath for them to grab a torch to burn down your CEO’s offices for that.

[consteval]

> skate around the edges of Marxism

If you truly believe what I'm saying is skating the edges of Marxism, you have a mental disorder and you require treatment.

For my own conscious, I'm going to then assume you're being dishonest and don't really believe this.

What people need to realize is that we have two parties in the US: the ultra-capitalists, and the slightly-less-ultra capitalists. I'm not a communist because I'm advocating better working conditions.

> their working conditions were fine and appropriate for the job they were being asked to do

Okay. How do you figure this? You just pulled this out of your ass. Says who? And why?

Does their job require them to sit at one specific desk for 40 hours a week? No, and that's not up for debate. Therefore, their working conditions ARE NOT appropriate for their job.

If the cashier is required to stand on one leg, just for shits and giggles, is that appropriate? No, it's completely unnecessary.

Getting up from your computer, driving an hour, and then sitting down at another computer to do your job is just that - completely unnecessary. You gain nothing, and I do literally mean nothing. It's done purely for a sense of control and ego.

> But there is a huge difference between a SWE working in a climate controlled office with a 6 figure salary, free drinks, and snacks and a sewer worker

There is, but I mentioned earlier your own self-destructive attitude, and this is that.

You are of the same class. You may THINK you're leagues ahead, but you're really not. The reason you THINK you're leagues ahead is because that is advantageous for your employer.

Your employer is such an evil genius they have gotten you to not only not advocate better conditions for yourself, but actually argue you don't deserve better conditions. They don't have to do anything - they can just sit back, and you'll give them head, no questions asked.

I mean, do you really not see that? Here you are, literally advocating and fighting for things that are objectively worse for you. That's not normal behavior, something in your brain broke somewhere along the way.