[rKarpinski]

"Engineers have been spoiled rotten for the last two decades[...] employers offered unlimited PTO"

In what world does unlimited PTO spoil engineers? It removes the companies liability for vacation days and shames employees into taking less time off.

[justinlloyd]

My second time with "unlimited PTO." Two days in eight months. I attended a funeral. "There's never enough time. We need to get this milestone shipped. Maybe next quarter we can build in some slack for you."

[recursivedoubts]

unlimited PTO is an accounting gimmick so the company doesn't have to carry PTO balances as a liability and pay them out if you leave

[sharpy]

Very true. My previous employeer offered use it or lose it 6 weeks. I used it all. My current employeer offers unlimited PTO. I take 3 weeks at max...

[therealdrag0]

Create a spreadsheet to track it yourself. Set a goal and make sure you hit it. If your previous job gave you 6 weeks then set that as your goal now too.

[tessierashpool9]

is there a term for this psychological phenomenon where someone wants less if more is offered and more if less is offered (qualitatively speaking)?

[sudofail]

I've had "unlimited PTO" for most of my 15 year career. I've never been able to take at most, 3 weeks off due to the reasons you mentioned.

[therealdrag0]

I have unlimited and I set myself a goal for 25 days a year, which I usually hit, not including company holidays (~11).

[ckmiaomix]

Author here! Came when I saw my Substack blowing up.

This isn't to imply that engineers are universally treated well, but that RELATIVE to other workers, they held far more bargaining power and faced better working conditions across the board. Most companies outside of the tech bubble don't even have the concept of unlimited PTO.

There's probably something broader to be said re: this point on bargaining power of workers in general, but this is above my pay grade.

[inerte]

The spirit of what you're saying is correct, and you just need to find better examples.

More than half of anyone working on a tech company is not an engineer. So don't say "engineers get better treatment than other workers", just any employee in tech.

And afaik the data on companies that have unlimited PTO is that their employees actually take LESS time off. So it looks good on paper, but in effect does the opposite.

Still, you're right, tech workers have it easy compared to most other jobs, including a lot of other office workers (mostly due to better pay and benefits)

[realitychx2020]

>> This isn't to imply that engineers are universally treated well, but that RELATIVE to other workers, they held far more bargaining power and faced better working conditions across the board. Most companies outside of the tech bubble don't even have the concept of unlimited PTO.

One might also argue that US residents disagree with you so much that they arent applying to tech jobs in sufficient quanities. The pay and benefits are not worth it when compared to the instability, stress, "benefits", and chaos -- and instead we hire foreigners who are more desperate for the work, and thus willing to work for perks like "Unlimited PTO".

It isnt like there arent smart people in the US who can do these jobs, its more that the smart people go to jobs with real benefits and real perks -- cushy jobs on Wall St or senior management or government jobs where you dont have to do anything.

[compiler-guy]

They don't have the concept of unlimited PTO because it is a lie masquerading as an employee benefit entirely to serve the firm's accountants.

[ckmiaomix]

I'd actually really like to believe that what you've written is true. If hundreds and thousands of tech workers were empowered toliterally quit the workforce if their higher needs weren't met, I'd be DELIGHTED.

But the reality is that the jobs with "real perks" are really hard to get and few and far between. They require powerful networks, timing, and luck. Most of the folks I know who were impacted by the recent layoffs just want a place where they can make a good living and feel appreciated.

[ARandomerDude]

Are bargaining power and working conditions better or different? For example, school teachers have lower pay but they also have substantially more time off than I ever will.

There are several nurses in my extended family, and they frequently work 3 crazy days and then are off for the next 4 days. There is no way I could routinely take off 4 days in a week as a software dev. The flip side is the 3 days they work are likely even more stressful than my job, since I don't run the risk of accidentally killing someone.

[missinglugnut]

Hi author,

I think you've written an excellent article, and also that you would be well served by ignoring the comments on it.

Some people here feel you've called them entitled. I think you made a useful nuanced point about how engineering looks to others, but the people who feel insulted don't see it that way and some of them are going to be quite harsh about it.

Those who interpret your article as an attack are not going to be swayed, so I'm just here to say you have my respect if you choose to disengage.

[snarf21]

Yeah, you are missing the point. Yes, tech are treated better than garbage workers but the question is about the specific concept of "unlimited" PTO.

The "unlimited" is a anti-benefit. Just like free dry-cleaning at the office. Besides the tax implications others have mentioned, there is the mental loss aversion. People who used to have 4 weeks of vacation that are use it or lose it would always take every single day.

Making it unlimited means that in practice, engineers take less than what they used to get because the portal doesn't list how many days they have left. At my current job, a co-worker was questioned heavily about why he needed to take more than 4 weeks vacation despite the fact we have "unlimited". (2 of the weeks he used were because he moved cross country so not an every year kind of event or abuse).

[15155]

> Most companies outside of the tech bubble don't even have the concept of unlimited PTO.

Is "unlimited PTO" a good thing?

[realitychx2020]

>> Is "unlimited PTO" a good thing?

Unlimited PTO means:

- If you are on a visa -- no PTO

- If you are part of the in-crowd friends with the boss -- unlimited PTO (see: @tech.unicorn for the lifestyle)

[15155]

It actually means:

- No payout liability for the company

[realitychx2020]

> - No payout liability for the company

Yes, legally. Socially, however, you are just trading real days for however much political capital each individual has.

[ckmiaomix]

Buddy...the point is really, really not unlimited PTO.

NO ONE treated workers at scale like Google did in earlier decades. It was literally wild and unprecedented.

Engineers for many decades had unprecedented job mobility and bargaining power. Certainly not a bad thing in and of itself, but it's an outlier experience that's ending.

Unfortunately, companies don't organically and spontaneously decide to treat their workers well. Leaders need to fight for it...and most engineering leaders just aren't positioned to right now.

[bluepizza]

You seem to be missing a lot of data points. From Microsoft to even Jack Welch's GE, absolutely everyone who was competitive was trying to butter up talent.

And then you affirm things such as "unprecedented job mobility", for which citation is sorely needed, and close it with "it's ending", though there is absolutely no evidence for it.

It seems to me that you are trying to ignite some flames, but your points are very thin on data.