[galeaspablo]

Many engineers don’t truly care about the correctness issue, until it’s too late. Similar to security.

Or they care but don’t bother checking whether what they’re doing is correct.

For example, in my field, where microservices/actors/processes pass messages between each other over a network, I dare say >95% of implementations I see have edge cases where messages might be lost or processed out of order.

But there isn’t an alignment of incentives that fixes this problem. Ie the payment structures for executives and engineers aren’t aligned with the best outcome for customers and shareholders.

[noprocrasted]

> there isn’t an alignment of incentives that fixes this problem

"Microservices" itself is often a symptom of this problem.

Everyone and their dog wants to introduce a network boundary in between function calls for no good reason just so they can subsequently have endless busywork writing HTTP (or gRPC if you're lucky) servers, clients & JSON (de?)serializers for said function calls and try to reimplement things like distributed transactions across said network boundary and dealing with the inevitable "spooky action at a distance" that this will yield.

[sethammons]

I've worked with microservices at scale and it was fantastic. We couldn't break backwards compatibility with our API without a lot of coordination. Outside of that, you could deploy as frequently as needed and other services could update as needed to make use of new features.

The monoliths I have worked in, very contrastingly, have had issues coordinating changes within the codebases, code crosses boundaries it should not and datastores get shared and coupled to (what should be) different domains leading to slow, inefficient code and ossified options for product changes.

[shepherdjerred]

If you're hand-writing clients/servers/serializers instead of generating them from schema definitions then you have more fundamental issues than using microservices.

[sethammons]

We hand wrote clients at my last microservice based gig. It was marginally slower than automated clients and we did run into a few cases of teams "waisting" their time writing their own clients; that was fixed by the authoring service team also authoring clients. It wasn't a big issue

[sethammons]

The path to fixing this requires first measuring and monitoring it, then establishing service level objectives that represent customer experience. Product and engineering teams have to agree on them. If the SLOs become violated, focus shifts towards system stability.

Getting everyone onboard is hard and that is why good leadership is needed. When customers start to churn because bugs pop up and new features are slow or non existent, then the case is very easy to make quality part of the process. Mature leaders get ahead of that as early as possible.

[galeaspablo]

Good leadership is spot on! Agreed. The cynic part of me sees incentives that discourage mature leadership styles.

Leaders tend to be impatient and think of this quarter’s OKRs as opposed to the business’ long term financial health. In other word the leaders of leaders use standard MBA prescribed incentive structures.

[secondcoming]

> 95% of implementations I see have edge cases where messages might be lost or processed out of order.

Eek. This sort of thing can end up with innocent people in jail, or dead.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal

[noprocrasted]

The problem (or the solution, depending on which side you're on) is that innocent people are in jail or dead. The people that knowingly allowed this to happen are still free and wealthy.

So I'm not particularly sure this is a good example - if anything, it sets the opposite incentives, that even jailing people or driving them to suicide won't actually have any consequences for you.

[mrkeen]

I think there's a bit of an alignment of incentives: the edge cases are tricky enough that your programmers probably need to handle a lot of support tickets, which isn't good for anyone.

But I don't see anyway to convince yesterday's managers to give us time to build it right.