[josteink]

We all know PHP has its shortcomings, but there appears to be a witch hunt going on here.

I think some of the witch hunt comes in attempt to steer people away from a language which is badly designed and has a million bugs which cannot be fixed without breaking most of the existing code written for the language.

Pestering a language like that is only fair.

While I'm sure it gets tiresome for those who for whatever reason have to work or prefer working in PHP, it is only a polite gesture to the software-developers who has yet to take that dark path.

If they can be dissuaded, they should.

[j_col]

> ...badly designed...

> ...and has a million bugs...

> ...cannot be fixed...

> Pestering a language like that is only fair.

> ...who has yet to take that dark path

Wow that's a lot of emotive language. Like the man said, witch hunt.

[josteink]

While I agree lots of that is emotive, it is hard to argue against the truth in 1. badly designed, 2. bugs, and 3. which cannot be fixed without breaking most PHP code.

The rest follows naturally. Anyway: Have an upvote for objectively dissecting my semi-objective analysis.

[gouranga]

If someone started again and fixed those issues, would it rock?

[josteink]

Would it rock? Nah. It would merely make it less horrible. It lacks fundamental elegance and it lacks advanced capabilities. Even if fixed, it would still only be clinging to the crown of mediocracy.

But that is fine. Not all languages can or should be mind bending or define its own paradigm. So yeah, if all its problems was somehow in all unlikelyness fixed, it would be fine. It would be fine, but it would in no way "rock".

[flatline3]

It would be a completely different language.

[gouranga]

Yes I realise that

[slurgfest]

In that case, why not just use any of the existing developed alternatives rather than developing an entire new PHP replacement from scratch?

[mikeash]

Yep, there's no need for language like that when dispassionate facts can get the point across just as well:

1. PHP contains a bug which makes class and function names containing certain letters, like I, fail when the code is run in certain locales.

2. This bug has been open for ten years and has not been fixed. It's not likely to ever be fixed.

3. Many similar bugs exist in the code base, due to the PHP team's approach to language design.

[gouranga]

Granted it's horrible (I agree there), but it does solve a lot of problems rather quickly.

I'd argue that it solves the problems in the '00s that Visual Basic did in the 90's.

What I'd really like to see is a solution for '10s which fits that niche and is equally as productive, yet less horrible.

[Mikushi]

Who are you to decide that?

I am one of those who chose to work with PHP, and I'm getting more than tired about that witch hunt, to a point where I would actually punch someone.

I do realise PHP is not ideal, but as I always say, in the end it get shits done, and the vast majority of those problems or "design flaws" does not affect 99.9% of the community. Most of the people who bitch about it are not even users, in the heavy user circles we know of some of the issues, try to advocate for improvement, but seriously in almost a decade of using PHP, I could compile all those blog posts, and confidently say : I never had any issue whatsoever with any of the problems pointed.

And that's what most elitist around here forget, for 99.9% of its user base, PHP is not flawed, it works, easy to learn, easy to scale, easy to deploy, upgrade, easy to find developers...

While I get what you are trying to say, you are in no position to say so, and the community -the one that actually matters- already spoke, we have no major issue with PHP, so leave us the fuck alone please. If it bugs you that much, consult a therapist you have bigger issues than PHP...

[josteink]

I suspect that the only people who can defend PHP on technical merits are people who have yet to try something better and have yet to realize just how much better most other options out there are.

If that describes you, I am sorry for you, and deeply encourage you to take on something new on the side, in a different language. Just for fun, learning and exploration. Just to let your mind get a feel for how the world can (and maybe should) be different.

I've done PHP. I've been there. So don't get me wrong. PHP has good sides. Yes yes, it does. But IMO (and I'm far from alone here) they are completely overshadowed by the bad sides.

[gouranga]

That's a bit patronizing.

Having dealt with every language under the sun over the last 20 years, PHP still has an as yet unbeatable sweet spot when it comes to getting stuff done.