[tptacek]

Not kill 1200 people, including 815 civilians, and take an addition 251 hostage.

But I think it's really important to be clear about who "we" is here. Last I checked, a majority of Gazans are not old enough ever to have voted in an election (the last one was held almost 20 years ago). If you mean "Hamas", and you stipulate that Hamas is in any way operating in the best interests of living Gazans in the present, it's easy to give a clear answer to that question. If you mean Gazan civilians, the true victims of Hamas, it's much more complicated.

[xfax]

Hamas is a symptom of desperation. It certainly is not acting in the best interest of Gazans and they are suffering due to that.

But on the other hand, diplomacy has not been an effective tool for Gazans and, as all signs indicate, it never will. Not at least until US withdraws its unconditional support for Israel.

With status quo, Gazans have the choice to lie down and die or continue living under deplorable conditions under a military occupation, as Israel slowly annexes the land that, under international law, doesn’t belong to them.

[tptacek]

I agree. Gazan civilians had no good options (though, as we've discovered, it was possible for things to get far worse for them than they had been, and I don't think it serves any purpose to sugarcoat that).

Having said that: I don't want to get into 2024 Israeli policy with regards to Gaza, because with this ruling coalition who knows anything, but in the status quo ante of this attack Israel was not in fact slowly annexing the Gaza. (They are slowly annexing the West Bank, to be sure, but these are distinct populations with distinct governance).

[aguaviva]

In the status quo ante of this attack Israel was not in fact slowly annexing the Gaza.

Not yet, as majority policy. But a sizable contingent is clamoring for exactly that (only they'd prefer it happen much more quickly):

  ‘It is doable’: 10 Likud MKs to attend conference calling for ‘resettling Gaza’

https://archive.ph/BPP5C

[tptacek]

Yes, but that is a response to the October 7 attacks, and this thread is about the antecedents of that attack.

(I question the seriousness of that movement; Likud under Ariel Sharon disengaged from Gaza and dismantled the settlements there, for practical reasons. It is not necessarily in the long-term interests of the Israeli state to settle in the Gaza Strip. But it doesn't matter for this thread either way. If it needs saying: all of Israeli's illegal settlement programs are bad.)

[xfax]

You’re right. I was referring to the Palestinian Territories in the context of annexation.