[lispm]

> Everything seems to be stuck in paper based processes, only occasionally and very listlessly digitized.

That's nonsense. Most public transport is digital by now.

> The DB Navigator is so terrible

It's not terrible. I managed to book all my train travels just fine with it, also using a business bahncard which gives me a 50% discount on all trains.

[eptcyka]

I couldn't pay for my ubahn with a credit card on the bahn, and the app required me to use some kind of a paypal derivative. I did not pay.

Regardless of whether it is digitized or not, regional trains suck. To pay on the train, I think I was forced to use cash.

Further, the process for getting refunds when you miss a connection requires one to fill in forms on paper and scan them in and then send in via email. Or was it snail mail? I didn't attempt it, I just saw that my train was delayed for hours with no explanation for what can I do about it, realized I'm missing my connection and then booked a plane ticket and got home faster than if I had traveled by rail without any delays. 10/10, will fly whenever possible from now on.

[lispm]

Pay before. That's how the transport systems generally work in Germany. In many trains you need to have a ticket BEFORE entering the train and also BEFORE entering the platform in the train station.

> Further, the process for getting refunds when you miss a connection requires one to fill in forms on paper and scan them in and then send in via email.

I can do that in the DB app.

[eptcyka]

The DB app? Definitely was not an option for the people who did that. Granted, we are europeans, not Germans living in Germany.

Paying before just isn't always practical, but I understand that such limitations are often a non-issue for locals.

[immibis]

If you don't pay before, and the train doesn't have a ticket machine on it (most don't, but some e.g. trams in Berlin do) you are riding illegally. That's how it works in Germany.

[lispm]

> The DB app? Definitely was not an option for the people who did that.

Yeah, it's in the app.

> Paying before just isn't always practical, but I understand that such limitations are often a non-issue for locals.

That's how it works. Typical here for local trains: there are no barriers in train and bus stations. One can just enter the train and bus without any ticket check. But you have to make sure that you have a ticket. The local trains have no installation to buy a ticket anymore. Typically one would buy them online or have a subscription ticket. How does the system make sure that people pay and don't game the system? There are random checks.

If you want a ticket, buy it before entering a train. Train stations have either ticket systems or a ticket office. But most people by now do it online either per website or app.

For long-distance trains I would always book in advance (it's often also cheaper) and book a seat, too.

[weinzierl]

That's how it works.

That's how it works in Germany. Everywhere else I just swipe my mobile and I am done.

[lispm]

I don't even need to swipe a ticket. All my local public transport has zero ticket checks, just random&rare controls.

In a long distance train I check in on my booked seat via the app. That's it. No additional ticket check.

[immibis]

German people have an understandable historical revulsion to the government tracking their every move.

[eptcyka]

Yeah, cool, I understand, it is how it is done. I am not arguing that, and I already conceded that.

Why are you bringing the same argument back up again?

Have you considered that people who travel through your country will not install another app on their phone? I do not need another quarter of a gigabyte app to pay for something that could've been paid for via VISA or Mastercard. Oh wait, I did install the app. And it asked me to use a paypal account. I do not carry my papyal credentials with me.

I have never gotten on long distance trains and expected to pay on them, not what I am arguing about.

And when I mean that the app was not an option, I mean that in our case, we couldn't use the app to submit a return. I was not the one submitting those forms, I was too lazy. The people who did told me the app did not work for their case. Given that you've told me 2x that "you can just do it in the app", what else can I say besides the fact that when tried, it did not work? Are you dismissing the lived experience of the person you are talking to? Why?

All of that notwithstanding, why not decrease the friction from needing to use an app (phone needs to be supported, charged and have an internet connection) and instead use contactless payment terminals?

[lispm]

> Are you dismissing the lived experience of the person you are talking to? Why?

The DB App has this option, now. That's all. If this information does not help you, there are other readers here, too.

> All of that notwithstanding, why not decrease the friction from needing to use an app (phone needs to be supported, charged and have an internet connection) and instead use contactless payment terminals?

You can buy with credit cards (and a few other options) using the usual payment terminals. Again, you usually have to pay outside of the train. The terminals are at the train station.

[weinzierl]

That's nonsense. Most public transport is digital by now.

SNCF, SNCB and EuroStar let me manage my tickets digitally in my digital wallet. That is super convenient if you have more complicated itineraries because you have all the tickets handy in a single app, when you need them.

With Deutsche Bahn it is either their app or a PDF to print.

For local and inner city transport you usually don't need a ticket a all, just swipe your card or phone at the beginning and end of your trip.

You can forget about that anywhere in Germany. It is paper tickets everywhere or a gazillion of different apps, because every city and network has their own.

That is very much not my understanding of public transport being digital.

[lispm]

> With Deutsche Bahn it is either their app or a PDF to print.

They also have an extensive web-based ticket shop.

You don't need to print PDF tickets. One can also show a PDF ticket on an electronic device, without printing it. I used the DB ticket PDFs for several years, without printing it. Nowadays a load the long-distance train tickets onto the phone and have it in the DB app, I have also a PDF version via mail.

> For local and inner city transport you usually don't need a ticket a all, just swipe your card or phone at the beginning and end of your trip.

I have that here also in my city. The reality: most people have a subscription, that's the by far dominant model. Simpler and less tracking needed.

> It is paper tickets everywhere or a gazillion of different apps, because every city and network has their own.

Larger cities like Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, Cologne, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Düsseldorf, ... are central for large traffic regions. For example the traffic region here in Hamburg serves roughly 3.7 million people.

> That is very much not my understanding of public transport being digital.

We now have a Germany-wide affordable subscription-based ticket for local&regional public transport. That's my understanding of public transport gone digital, nation-wide. The basics were operational after only a few months of planning.

[weinzierl]

> Everything seems to be stuck in paper based processes, only occasionally and very listlessly digitized.

That's nonsense. Most public transport is digital by now.

I did a more complicated trip with multiple legs. Booked via SNCF, bc DB-Navigator would not let me book some of the border crossing legs, I tried. The only leg that required a paper ticket was in Germany. In 2023, not last century.

[BlueTemplar]

Was there really not even a pdf and/or matrix code option ?