[mindentropy]

I am seeing the flight to low cost countries now termed as "Best" cost countries is afoot in Europe. Germany has shot itself in the foot by destroying its energy sector. Now that the energy prices have shot through the roof most of the industries are going to get outsourced. The thirst for cheap labour and where the laws especially labour laws are lax is a wet dream for management.

[Lutzb]

Hm, the available data does not support your point/sentiment that energy prices are increasing for industrial customers in Germany. (see https://www.bdew.de/service/daten-und-grafiken/bdew-strompre... or https://www.statista.com/statistics/1050448/industrial-elect...)

From https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/industry-electricity-pr...

> Economist and economy ministry advisor Jens Südekum called the analysis’s results “astonishing.” Commenting on social media platform X, Südekum pointed out that industry prices had fallen “significantly” and that price indicators continued to point downwards. The trend would be similar for private households, albeit at a slower pace, he argued. Once current contracts expire, Südekum said lower prices should become widespread in new ones. “Overall, the BDEW figures don’t chime with current mood in debates, which is that everything is going down the drain due to high energy prices,” he argued.

[mindentropy]

I understand where you are coming from, especially with the data. As I grew older I rarely trust data as it is not independent, manipulated or given a false view. It should be supported by physical evidences which is often missing.

An anecdotal evidence, a large semiconductor in Germany with fabs is moving to "best" cost countries and the message provided is clear by the management. Positions are moved to "best" cost countries and new offices in these locations are being opened. Support jobs i.e. back office, accounting etc are in the process first. R&D is next and many engineers have taken the hint. The biggest customers for them is automotive as is usually the case for most of the German companies. If automotive market falls then they are in serious trouble. Make what you want out of this.

[hnbad]

FWIW there was a huge surge in energy costs following the war in Ukraine (due to the reduction in supply of Russian gas) which was dampened by the government with a subsidized price cap at 0.40€/kWh - for consumers anyway, as far as I'm aware there were different subsidies for industry.

But consumer prices have largely stabilized at a range of 0.25€ - 0.35€ although you'll also find some prices listed as low as 0.20€ or less if you are willing to price hop a lot.

Apparently there will also be price cuts in the North and East of Germany as well as Bavaria in the near future but I don't know the specifics of that.

[jansan]

> FWIW there was a huge surge in energy costs following the war in Ukraine (due to the reduction in supply of Russian gas)

And due to the fact that they decided to shut down the last nuclear power plants directly after that, which further reduced supply and until today I consider this one of the most stupid political decisions ever made.

[Lutzb]

I think the 4.1 percent that nuclear was providing was not having the impact you are assuming. Also the amount of energy produced by natural gas and renewables more than offset the cost of nuclear.

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-c...

[jansan]

Well, electricity consumption has fallen quite a bit, because energy intensive industries (like chemical industry) already left the country. Energy prices are still high (not as high as 2022) and they would probably be much higher if those industries were still there.

Unfortunately there is little reason to invest in Germany at the moment. It will get worse(they are already announcing an increase in health insurance rates) before it will get better.

[Lutzb]

Do you have any numbers regarding companies that have left Germany because of energy costs?

[jansan]

No, but news are everywhere if you open your eyes.

https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/industrie/basf-chem...

https://www.electrive.net/2023/05/23/volkswagen-streicht-woh...

https://www.chemietechnik.de/markt/lanxess-spart-und-schlies...