[jcgrillo]

> power is much easier to get compared to fuel

Only if your power grid is functioning, which I wouldn't expect to be the case in most major disaster situations. Otherwise you'll be stuck burning fuel in a generator to charge your car.

EDIT: the other great thing about liquid fuel is it doesn't weigh very much. Diesel is 7.1lb/gal so if your diesel car gets 32mpg (like mine does) you get 4.5mi/lb. With 1500lb on a trailer--let's say it only gets 20mpg or 2.8mi/lb towing--that's an extra 4200mi of range. That's enough to go from Boston to Anchorage without refueling. It's also a much more easily transferable energy source than electrons--all you need to do is pour liquid from one container into another. You don't need some fancy battery charger that needs stable power at such and such Volts, Watts, and Hz.. So, no, in a disaster or war situation I doubt the EVs will work at all.

[vel0city]

When the grid wasn't functioning around me, pretty much every gas station didn't have working pumps. The extreme few which did heavily rationed fuel (I think only 4gal per customer?) and often ran out.

[jcgrillo]

I have ~200gal of red diesel in a home heating oil tank for the shop that I could easily burn in my car, tractor (with PTO generator), or whatever. This is the versatility of liquid fuel--it's a fungible asset with a pretty good shelf life (basically infinite for diesel, with appropriate additives quite long for gasoline).

Another problem with going to the gas station is payment. No internet means no credit cards or whiz-bang apple wallet stuff.

[vel0city]

> I have ~200gal of red diesel

> it's a fungible asset

Cool, let me put that in my gas-powered ICE car. Its so fungible.

And I mean practically every household has a 200gal tank of diesel in their apartment and suburban household. Only the oddballs wouldn't have it.

> tractor

Hmm, makes me think maybe most households aren't in the same situation here. Most households are going to be in the same situation if their car is an ICE versus an EV. Maybe ever so slightly better in the EV, because at least they're likely to already be charged to like 90% every night versus somewhere between nearly empty to full. In the end, if the grid stops working chances are they're going to have a hard time getting more gas until they get someplace where the grid is functioning.

[jcgrillo]

> my gas-powered ICE car

That's a choice, definitely the more common one in the US, but not the only one. I've been driving diesel cars for my entire adult life--better part of a quarter century now.

Gasoline is by far the worst of the common fuels--diesel, gasoline, and propane. They make propane dinghy outboards for exactly this reason--carrying gasoline just for the dinghy really inconveniences a boat whereas they already have propane and diesel onboard for the engine and galley. Diesel and propane both have ~infinite shelf life.

> Hmm, makes me think maybe most households aren't in the same situation here.

Yes, I've prioritized access to nature and quiet over pretty much everything else. That's not normally what people who do computers for job do.

[throwaway2037]

About driving diesel: They pollute much more. Can you comment on that?

    > Diesel and propane both have ~infinite shelf life.

Google disagrees with the comment about diesel fuel. It looks like 6-12 months. Do you really think that generators attached to most large buildings never rotate their diesel fuel supply? I doubt it.

[jcgrillo]

I don't know where Google is getting their information from, but I've personally started diesels I know haven't run in 20+yr on the first crank. There are three things that can fuck up a diesel:

1. Air leaks in the fuel system. If any of the negative pressure components have an air leak you'll be sucking air. This means less fuel, but more crucially less lubrication. High pressure injection pumps are meant to be lubricated by fuel.

2. Algae. Sometimes a fuel system can be contaminated by extremophiles that grow in untreated fuel. This will merely clog filters, and in the absence of water or air leaks will cause only fuel starvation and no engine damage.

3. Water. Water will turn into a steam bubble in the vacuum of the suction stroke of the injector pump, and then on the subsequent compression stroke the bubble will cavitate--turn inside out--and blast the wall of the injection pump cylinder with an extremely concentrated high temperature jet. Doing this hundreds of times per second wreaks havoc on the poor engine.

So if your fuel is dry and clean you're good.

For the pollution question, my retort is "which kind?" I claim diesels create more NOx and soot for less CO2. So, which is your priority?

[vel0city]

There's a lot of variables there. How well sealed is your tank? Was there much air there? How humid?

Its definitely much shorter than a decade, but if stored really well more than a year is pretty doable. 2+ years can be a gamble though. And if it causes problems, it might cause some serious problems. Want to gamble on your generator during an emergency?

I've definitely had some gas sitting in a tank with stabilizer last a couple of years. I've definitely had gas sitting in a tank go bad in under a year.

[seanmcdirmid]

Not many people know that red diesel is simply dyed and only so cops know if you are using it in your car (since it lacks vehicle taxes). Unfortunately, they couldn’t do the same with electrons, so we just pay higher tag fees.

[prmoustache]

> I have ~200gal of red diesel in a home heating oil tank for the shop that I could easily burn in my car, tractor (with PTO generator), or whatever.

Not defending EV in particular but you can't expect everyone to have that.

[_hyn3]

Yes, unless they've had the foresight to want it and seek it out.

[Sebb767]

> that I could easily burn in my car, tractor (with PTO generator), or whatever.

Or in a generator, for use in your EV :-) Whereas it will be hard to run your diesel car or tractor on solar power.

[_hyn3]

It will take quite a long time to charge an EV on solar power (or off a portable generator). The power density is just very inefficient compared to the huge mass of the batteries.

[Loudergood]

I have solar panels at home. Electricity is way more fungible than dino fuels.

[seanmcdirmid]

You actually don’t need a power grid to generate electricity, just a water wheel or some solar panels. I’ve been to some off grid places in China that mostly use water wheels, crazy stuff. Many Alaskan communities aren’t connected by grid to the outside but have local hydro stations to supply all their needs, with maybe diesel as a back up. Hawaiian islands are similar, but with solar instead of hydro.

If the apocalypse comes, EVs will be running for a lot longer than ICEs.

[mschuster91]

> Only if your power grid is functioning, which I wouldn't expect to be the case in most major disaster situations. Otherwise you'll be stuck burning fuel in a generator to charge your car.

An AM capable emergency radio is a few bucks on Amazon, and they have a hand spin generator next to batteries and a 12V or other wide-range DC input to attach a regular wall wart or a tiny solar panel.