[verdverm]

Two points of consideration for the end game

1. Do the Ukrainian get to be a self determining people? Are the free to join any alliance or economic group that will have them? Are they the ones who get to decide how much land they will trade for this?

2. What does the outcome tell other would be invaders? Does the Western alliance defend their ideals or cave to using force to take what you want?

One cannot evaluate the end game of Ukraine independent of the other global hot points in the Middle East and Asia. The autocrats have formed an alliance and seek to undermine democracy wherever and whenever they can.

[mads_ravn]

I think number 1 is the essential point for anyone supporting democracy. Ukrainians, not Russians, decided who they elect as their leaders (1) and which organizations they want to join. It is depressing to hear people in democracies arguing otherwise.

As for point two: Yes it is also massively in the interest of democracies, that Ukraine wins and Europe is strengthened.

I think Stoltenberg summed up it up nicely in (2)

>So supporting Ukraine is not only the morally right thing to do. It is also in our own security interest.

(1) Queue Russian non-sense about Maidan being a western coup.

(2) https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_212041.htm