[msvan]

I kind of see myself from ten years ago in this blog post! I also obsessively studied Mandarin Chinese in my late teens for the sheer fun of it, before doing a math undergrad. I even wrote comments on Hacker News about it a decade ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7622940.

At the time I had seemingly limitless motivation for grinding away on flashcards and other learning materials. My progress was strong and I passed the HSK6 after a year and a half or so of studying, which at the time was the highest level of certification offered. I think they changed the system since and added more levels beyond 6. You can do amazing things if you're dedicated!

Today my Chinese is absolutely unusable, and my views on China have soured to the extent that I don't really want to revive my old skills. My takeaway is that learning one of these languages, the CJK languages, Arabic, or similarly weird languages, is just too much effort and I don't think it's worth it. I clearly had a lot of excess energy at the time that I could've directed towards something better. Knowing Chinese is about as useful as juggling and you might as well get really good at juggling if you're bored. It'll save you a few thousand hours.

[aguaviva]

My takeaway is that learning one of these languages, the CJK languages, Arabic, or similarly weird languages, is just too much effort and I don't think it's worth it.

An excellent observation, and one that also applies to pretty much any skill with a steep learning curve (but whose applicability in one's daily life is decidedly optional -- like learning to play an instrument reasonably well, for example). If you're only doing it "for the sheer fun of it", or as boredom reduction tool then it almost certainly isn't going to be worth it.

On a more encouraging note -- while your Mandarin has evidently atrophied, it probably isn't completely gone. It's just gone to sleep. Language skills have a way of doing that (even one's native language, if one spends a sufficient amount of time immersed in other environments).

But most likely it's still there, and if you ever took it up again, you'd be surprised at how quickly it comes roaring back.

[crazygringo]

> Today my Chinese is absolutely unusable

Something similar happened to me -- did intensive Mandarin study in college followed by a summer in Beijing being totally immersed. Was incredible. Then continued with a language course back home, and watched as my vocabulary shrank -- something like 4 hrs/wk. of class (with homework on top) couldn't even maintain my Mandarin, much less improve it. Today I can't understand a thing -- I've literally forgotten it all except for counting to ten and some basic phrases. In hindsight, it was utterly wasted effort, except for the cultural benefits of the summer abroad.

In contrast, I can understand and get by in French and Spanish and Italian just fine, despite having studied those far less. If I'm traveling somewhere I just do a quick review of verb conjugations beforehand. But they just share so many cognates with English. When television is télévision or televisión or televisione it's just not that hard. But when television is diànshì, and virtually every word is brand-new like that... it's just not worth it.

(And even when you learn a new word in e.g. Spanish that's totally different from English, you'll often get it "for free" in another one -- e.g. "pretend" is fingir in Spanish, and fingere in Italian.)

[mettamage]

I know a bit of Italian and I found out that if I think hard enough there are cognates! Or, at least, something close to it anyway. I used your example of fingir/fingere and asked ChatGPT. See for yourself:

Me:

Is there a word in English that looks like fingir and is related to "to imagine"?

ChatGPT:

The English word "feign" is related to the Spanish word "fingir." Both words share a common Latin root, fingere, meaning "to shape" or "to form." While "feign" often means pretending or giving a false appearance, it can be connected to "imagine" in the sense of fabricating or creating a scenario in the mind. So, "feign" might be what you're looking for!

[satvikpendem]

I found learning Latin (and to some extent, ancient Greek) to be far more useful for learning new words in the Romance languages (and English) in general than actually learning the Romance languages themselves.

[HKH2]

Learning reinforces itself once you get fluent enough.

[nojs]

Passing HSK 6 is hard, congrats.

Instead of seeing it as a massive grind, you could integrate it into your life in small ways e.g. conversing with native speakers, reading some of your daily content in Chinese, etc. You'd get the skill back essentially for free, and enjoy it more.

[chemmail]

This is nuts, if i learned Mandarin, i would probably move to Taiwan, where the CoL is almost 1/4th of where I am right now. I know some other languages, but loss the will to study anymore lol.

[kaliqt]

You can go without knowing Mandarin, you can learn while you are there at a language school or university.

[jameshush]

I'm a foreigner who's live in Taiwan over the past four years. You can move here tomorrow if you want :D. You can survive with English (though your life will be easier with Mandarin), and there are plenty of English teachers who never learned Mandarin who've lived here for 10+ years.

Highly recommend living here. I met my wife here. Life's chill. Nobody steals. If you've made at least $60k in salary at least once in the last three years you can apply for a Taiwan Gold Card (kinda like a Taiwanese O1 Visa) and come live/work here very easily.

The main reason I continue to learn Mandarin is because my mother in law speaks zero English, so it just makes everyone's live's more fun and pleasant if I speak some Mandarin. :D

[ossobuco]

You might as well move to any Chinese t1/t2 city; the cost of life is even lower, and you'll probably have more opportunities.

[HKH2]

CoL?

[Tronno]

Cost of living

[HKH2]

> Knowing Chinese is about as useful as juggling and you might as well get really good at juggling if you're bored.

If your purpose is to show off, yes, juggling wins.

[gljiva]

Interesting. I had the impression that Chinese will likely become very useful during our lifetimes... With the momentum their economy has, I expect knowledge of both English and Chinese to become a very sought out skill

[aebtebeten]

There was a soviet era joke: optimists practise their english, pessimists practise their chinese, and realists practise stripping their Kalashnikovs.

Four decades later: I guess some fraction of the optimists have emigrated; the pessimists might be finding their language skills freshly in demand; and the realists teach their grandchildren: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE3UUbBKDS8

[troad]

> There was a soviet era joke: optimists practise their english, pessimists practise their chinese, and realists practise stripping their Kalashnikovs.

Hah, that joke is more widespread than I realised. The Czech version is that optimists learn English, pessimists learn Russian, and realists learn marksmanship.

[rvba]

The "joke" really fits current Russia.

- hundreds of thousands run away after the Ukraine invasion to not get drafted (learning English was probably very useful for that, lingua franca of business and generally of the world)

-China is looking to make Russia their puppet state / due to embargo Russians cannot buy stuff from the West, so they try to get stuff via China (on a side note, they also get embargoed there to some degree + this comes at a cost)

-the poor are conscripted to die charging with their Kalashnikov against artillery. What's the expected life of them? 1 day?

[holoduke]

Without picking sides, but Russia does not have forced conscription. Ukraine does on the other hand force people via the notorious TCC. Russia is not a puppet state of China. Their relation isnt very strong. Naturally they dont get along with each other. But they are both forced to stick together and form a block against the west. Did you know that most Russians learn english on school?

[latentsea]

Except that lots of Chinese already speak English, and their Chinese is better, so I don't ever see a large market for mandarin skills in non-native speakers on the same scale as English.

[jdkoeck]

There are very few Chinese speaking English, actually. Go there and you’ll see.

[latentsea]

There's lots of you include the diaspora. Way more so than non-native mandarin speakers.

[amaccuish]

But the idea of chinese becoming useful in our lifetimes has more to do with chinese speakers in PRC and not in the diaspora.

[umbra07]

That was what was told to kids in elementary school 10-15 years ago, yes.

We seem to be moving away from that future (or perhaps it was never really true to begin with).

[snapetom]

When I was very young in the 70's, I was told to study French because it was the international language.

In the 80's, it was Japanese because they were going to take over the world.

In the 90's, I was told to take Spanish in college because the US was going to be a bilingual country.

As an adult in the 2000's, I watch US helicopter parents scramble to put their kids into immersive Mandarin courses, mimicking the Japanese fad of the 80's.

I'm at least proficient in four languages, none of which are the above four, and my life and career has been just dandy.

[smcin]

Which four languages are you proficient in?

[TrapLord_Rhodo]

tarrifs and other measures within the US and EU seem to be going the opposite direction.

[fn-mote]

It’s very hard to see how those local barriers to entry would reverse the global trend (I might even use a stronger word, closer to juggernaut.)

TBH, automated translation is the only potential I see to reduce the massive need for Chinese language skills in the future. Already we (in the US) get (and choose to use!!) parts whose data sheets are only available in Chinese. It seems clear to me where we are going.

[TrapLord_Rhodo]

>whose data sheets are only available in Chinese..

What in the supply chain fuck up is that? How do you even get quotes? I've been supply chain at Tesla, Amazon Excelsior metals and i've never, ever had someone send me a data sheet only in chinese.

>It’s very hard to see how those local barriers to entry would reverse the global trend.

Close to 20% of all Chinese exports are easily priced out with a 60% tarrif. Again, you don't need to "Reverse a global trend", you only need to reverse the local barriers to distance trade between the two nations.

So yes, learn that mandarin. Might help you land a job as a project manager for the belt and road initiative in Ghana!

[kragen]

That's what people in the Soviet Union thought 50 years ago too, about the USA.

[Agingcoder]

How do you define ‘worth it’ ?

[slim]

I guess the chinese content is disappointing because lack of freedom of speech. but why don't you travel to china ? to have real conversations with real people