[oneepic]

As a layperson who doesn't understand psychology but is interested in science and peace, I felt that Ferguson's article (this HN post) was much less directed at a person (as opposed to the person's work or theories put forward) and more professional, versus the linked blog post -- so I tend to believe the former.

Even a simple sentence like, "Ferguson did both of these things and his findings thus do not “undermine” our causal claims; he failed to accurately test our causal claims," comes across as scathing compared to the paper.

[lamontcg]

> so I tend to believe the former.

That's an extremely poor way to determine truth.

[gotoeleven]

Why is this "scathing"? He's literally just positing simple facts, which may or may not be true.

This tendency of people nowadays to focus on tone and other irrelevant characteristics of an argument (as it is made) is dumb.

[mistermann]

Humans commonly engage in deceptive rhetoric, and tone is one of the methods they use. Often, the individual may not even be doing it with substantial intention.

Wordplay is another, and there is plenty of it in this HN thread.

[gotoeleven]

But surely someone reading what is purportedly a scientific argument should be interested entirely in the scientific argument, don't you think?

Boy that Einstein fellow's paper sure had a gruff tone I'm sticking with Newton!

[mistermann]

The scientific argument originates from a human, and science has well demonstrated that human perception is untrustworthy (this thread offers plenty of evidence, but that tends to be categorized as "just X", so the ubiquitousness of the problem can never be realized...aka: there "is no evidence" that what I say is true).

Science uses a watered down but more ~practical form of epistemology, for example equating the knowledge of scientists with all of reality (There is no evidence [that I know of]). Some disciplines (military) use special language to circumvent this problem, at least sometimes.

There is what is true, and then there is the human experience of it, and scientists like most other humans mix the two up regularly. Doing otherwise is "pedantic", and is strongly culturally discouraged.

[oneepic]

That's an interesting point, doesn't this depend on the expertise of the audience? I'm not a psych expert, so if I'm unwilling to go back to school to interpret both sides "perfectly" then I'd be unsuccessful judging both sides on their factual/scientific merit. I only have other tools to choose from, ie. my personal experience, reading skills, being a (hopefully good) judge of character, etc.

[oneepic]

I argue it's relatively scathing, because Haidt's wording is much more dramatic, negative, and more aimed at a person than Ferguson's wording is. By "facts" I assume you mean claims, no?

I'm not sure how tone would be irrelevant; similar to what a sibling commenter said, tone conveys quite a bit of information. It seems unwise or "dumb" to ignore that, because we're still humans talking to each other, even if it's bits over a wire, and we're working together in good faith to learn and solve problems, aren't we?

[gotoeleven]

Sorry what exactly does his tone, whatever it may be, convey about whether or not the study in question was done well? I know it's difficult for some people but if you want to do science you have to focus on the facts. This tactic of mentioning the tone ("scathing") has only one purpose in a scientific discussion and that is to throw chaff into the air and derail the conversation with nonsense. Other examples of this are: you pronounced a name wrong! that's not my pronoun! "othering"! racisnogynism!

And yes a posited fact is also known as a claim.