[wavemode]

You don't really seem to be understanding the point I'm making, or perhaps don't understand what memory safety means. Or perhaps are assuming I'm a Rust newcomer.

> Rust won't let you do the wrong thing here (except if you explicitly opt-in to with `unsafe`

There is no "except if you" in this context. I'm talking about unsafe Rust, specifically. I'm not talking about safe Rust at all. Safe Rust is a very safe language, and equivalent in memory safety to safe Java and safe Python. So if that's your argument, you've missed the point entirely.

> In any case, this is orthogonal to safety.

No, it's not orthogonal - memory safety is exactly what I'm talking about. If you're talking about some other kind of safety, like null safety or something, you've again missed the point entirely.

> ... calling `.clone()` all over the place or wrapping your value in `Rc<T>` if it's for single-threaded code, or `Arc<Mutex<T>>` ...

This whole paragraph is assuming the use of safe abstractions. If you're arguing that safe abstractions are safe, then, well... I agree with you. But I'm talking about raw pointers, so you're missing the point here.

[ISV_Damocles]

You're moving the goalposts. Your original post had zero mention of unsafe Rust. You have now latched onto this as somehow proving Rust is less safe than Python and Java despite also mentioning how Java also has unsafe APIs you can use, which nullifies even your moved goalposts.

Btw, Python also has unsafe APIs[1, 2, 3, 4] so this doesn't even differentiate these two languages from each other. Some of them are directly related to memory safety, and you don't even get an `unsafe` block to warn you to tread lightly while you're using them. Perhaps we should elevate Rust above Java and Python because of that?

[1]: https://docs.python.org/3/library/gc.html#gc.get_referrers

[2]: https://docs.python.org/3/library/ctypes.html

[3]: https://docs.python.org/3/library/_thread.html

[4]: https://docs.python.org/3/library/os.html#os.fork

[wavemode]

No goalposts have been moved here. Rust is a programming language with both safe features and unsafe features. It is a totality.

And now you're linking me docs talking about things I already explicitly mentioned in my past comments.

You are so confidently ignoring my arguments, and so fundamentally misunderstanding basic concepts, that this discussion has really just become exhausting. I hope you have a nice day but I won't be replying further.

[pkolaczk]

Yes, Rust is a language with safe and unsafe features. So is Java and Python (and you admitted that in your comments). So Rust is not any less safe than Java or a Python but that logic, and the original point you’ve made in the first comment is incorrect.

Actually Rust is safer because its unsafe features must be surrounded by ‘unsafe’ keyword which is easy to look for, but you can’t say that about Java and Python.

[int_19h]

I can't think of anything in either Java or Python that is memory-unsafe when it comes to the languages themselves.

You can do unsafe stuff using stdlib in either language, sure. But by this standard, literally any language with FFI is "not any less safe" than C. Which is very technically correct, but it's not a particularly useful definition.

[pkolaczk]

Standard library is an inherent part of the language. There is no difference for the end user, whether the call to `unsafe` is a language builtin or a standard library call. The end result is, all of those languages have large safe subsets and you can opt-in into unsafety to do advanced stuff. And there isn't anything in the safe subset of Java / Python that you would need to use unsafe for when translating it to Rust.

[int_19h]

Again, by this standard, literally any language with FFI is "unsafe". This is not a useful definition in practice.

As far as translation of Java or Python to safe Rust, sure, if you avoid borrow checking through the usual tricks (using indices instead of pointers etc), you can certainly do so in safe Rust. In the same vein, you can translate any portable C code, no matter how unsafe, to Java or Python by mapping memory to a single large array and pointers to indices into that array (see also: wasm). But I don't think many people would accept this as a reasonable argument that Java and C are the same when it comes to memory safety.